Rasmus Wedin Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 Inspired by this thread I set out to do a little test, last night, for discharge rate of the Powerex 2700s. And I got some very interresting results indeed. I've been taking some much needed vacation during christmas and January, so my audiokit, including my powerex batteries, have just been sitting in my flat for the last 35 days. The batteries are about 1,5 years old. The last thing I did, just before christmas, was to do a Slow-discharge-recycle, so they were fully charged for storing. That was the 21st of December. I decided to test them on my In ear monitoring system (1 Tx Ew G3 / 2 Rx IEM G3) cause I have tested them before, with batteries fresh of the charger, and know the max run time I usually get with the Powerex. Tx 12 Hours, Rx 16 Hours. I fired the system up and this was the result (in hours). The "Now"-Numbers rounded downwards to nearest 15 minutes: Max - Now Tx 12 - 11,5 Rx 1: 16 - 14,5 Rx 2: 16 - 15 So, all in all, after 35 days "on the shelf" the Powerex 2700s had discharged between 4-10% of it's charge. Thats an average of 0,2% /day. Thats pretty damn good for such a high capacity battery. I think we can throw the "10% a day" claim out the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryF Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 Hi Rasmus, Thanks for the results on your batteries. I think in general you are correct. However, a few years ago we were using the Eveready 15 minute(!) fast charger and actually for a while shipped one out with the early MM and SM transmitters to get users to try rechageable NiMh with these units since the units would only run for an hour and a half on alkaline AA's. Further, lithium AA's were expen$ive and a little hard to find at that time. We experienced the rapid self discharge on many high capacity batteries that had been blasted by the Eveready 15 minute charger. Eveready's 2200mAh batteries were somewhat tolerant of the fast charge but the 2700 mAh Sanyo's and others including the 2500mAh Eveready batteries were quickly ruined. They were OK if you used them the same day they were charged but several days later, they had only a half charge left. Eveready no longer sells that 15 minute charger which is a telling fact. I would guess there are other chargers which are not good for high capacity batteries. The Maha (PowerEx) 1 hour charger seems to be the best blend between doing quick charging and not leaving the battery a smoking ruin. I've also had good personal luck with the iPower GC-60 charger though it is much simpler with fewer modes than the Maha unit. Best Regards, Larry Fisher Lectrosonics Inspired by this thread I set out to do a little test, last night, for discharge rate of the Powerex 2700s. And I got some very interresting results indeed. I've been taking some much needed vacation during christmas and January, so my audiokit, including my powerex batteries, have just been sitting in my flat for the last 35 days. The batteries are about 1,5 years old. The last thing I did, just before christmas, was to do a Slow-discharge-recycle, so they were fully charged for storing. That was the 21st of December. I decided to test them on my In ear monitoring system (1 Tx Ew G3 / 2 Rx IEM G3) cause I have tested them before with batteries fresh of the charger and know the max run time they have with the Powerex. Tx 12 Hours, Rx 16 Hours. I fired the system up and this was the result (in hours). The "Now"-Numbers rounded downwards to nearest 15 minutes: Max - Now Tx 12 - 11,5 Rx 1: 16 - 14,5 Rx 2: 16 - 15 So, all in all, after 35 days "on the shelf" the Powerex 2700s had discharged between 4-10% of it's charge. Thats an average of 0,2% /day. Thats pretty damn good for such a high capacity battery. I think we can throw the "10% a day" claim out the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason porter Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 I just ran a test of my own. I charged 8 powerex 2700's (just over a year old) and let them sit for 2 days, they were taken off the charger night of the 23rd. NONE of the batteries would power up an SMV (100mw) just a bunch of blinking leds. An Imedion, which had been living in the same Tx (for more than 2 weeks) powered it up without issue. Here are the measurements/usage times, I randomly chose one of the set of 8. 2 days off the charger- 1.32v, will not power SMV hot off the charger- 1.37v, RED led after 8 mins, 1.12v (23 mins total runtime) Perhaps I got a bad batch? Perhaps I just used them too much? They did get used heavily last year on a reality show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Rillie Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 I just ran a test of my own. I charged 8 powerex 2700's (just over a year old) and let them sit for 2 days, they were taken off the charger night of the 23rd. NONE of the batteries would power up an SMV (100mw) just a bunch of blinking leds. An Imedion, which had been living in the same Tx (for more than 2 weeks) powered it up without issue. Hi jason, I have only very rarely had such dismal results with Powerex batteries, even when charged for longer than 2 days. Sounds like they are just about toasted. Maybe a renew cycle will help them. I've been using the Powerex 2700's for a good few years now in my MMs, SMas, and SMVs with great results.Hot off the charger about 1.39 to 1.42 volts - red in about 1or 2 hours - life 3 to 4 hours. I have seen the performance you mention in the odd battery, and I figure that's the time to replace. Regards, Jim Rillie Jason wrote: Here are the measurements/usage times, I randomly chose one of the set of 8. 2 days off the charger- 1.32v, will not power SMV hot off the charger- 1.37v, RED led after 8 mins, 1.12v Perhaps I got a bad batch? Perhaps I just used them too much? They did get used heavily last year on a reality show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryF Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 Hi Jason, How long had the batteries been sitting around unused before you charged them? The first charge or two on a battery that has been unused for 3 months or so will not give you anywhere near full capacity. The second charge-discharge is typically 85% and the third charge is 100%. This is for a good battery. A worn out one will never recover, of course. Best, Larry F Lectro I just ran a test of my own. I charged 8 powerex 2700's (just over a year old) and let them sit for 2 days, they were taken off the charger night of the 23rd. NONE of the batteries would power up an SMV (100mw) just a bunch of blinking leds. An Imedion, which had been living in the same Tx (for more than 2 weeks) powered it up without issue. Here are the measurements/usage times, I randomly chose one of the set of 8. 2 days off the charger- 1.32v, will not power SMV hot off the charger- 1.37v, RED led after 8 mins, 1.12v (23 mins total runtime) Perhaps I got a bad batch? Perhaps I just used them too much? They did get used heavily last year on a reality show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benr Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 +2 for the Maha C-9000 smart charger, best charger I have ever owned. On top of that the Sanyo Eneloops are second to none interms of quality and long life and low discharge. Get some of those and give them a try. I have been using them for years and they have always performed perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasmus Wedin Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 23 minutes total runtime? That sounds like a joke. But I highly doubt there can be such a huge difference between batteries of the same brand. I don't have any lectros to test on, but I just did a test with the, now 36 days old, Powerexes in one of my Sennheiser 2000 lavs set to 100 mW. It ran for 7 hours straight, wich is about 89% of normal max capacity. The only explanation I see is you've worn them out by fast charging and not discharging them properly. Like I said, I only do slow charge and discharge them completly every three months. It seams like the obvious conclusion, looking at our vastly different results. I agree with Larry, you should definitly try and charge them again, preferably with a complete discharge of some sort, I don't know what charger you got. The C-9000 might be a good idea for you. Wish they made that one in a 8-bat version. Personally I use three C801D cause I got a lot of batteries to charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted January 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 So I have to discharge them??? 23 minutes total runtime? That sounds like a joke. But I highly doubt there can be such a huge difference between batteries of the same brand. I don't have any lectros to test on, but I just did a test with the, now 36 days old, Powerexes in one of my Sennheiser 2000 lavs set to 100 mW. It ran for 7 hours straight, wich is about 89% of normal max capacity. The only explanation I see is you've worn them out by fast charging and not discharging them properly. Like I said, I only do slow charge and discharge them completly every three months. It seams like the obvious conclusion, looking at our vastly different results. I agree with Larry, you should definitly try and charge them again, preferably with a complete discharge of some sort, I don't know what charger you got. The C-9000 might be a good idea for you. Wish they made that one in a 8-bat version. Personally I use three C801D cause I got a lot of batteries to charge. 23 minutes total runtime? That sounds like a joke. But I highly doubt there can be such a huge difference between batteries of the same brand. I don't have any lectros to test on, but I just did a test with the, now 36 days old, Powerexes in one of my Sennheiser 2000 lavs set to 100 mW. It ran for 7 hours straight, wich is about 89% of normal max capacity. The only explanation I see is you've worn them out by fast charging and not discharging them properly. Like I said, I only do slow charge and discharge them completly every three months. It seams like the obvious conclusion, looking at our vastly different results. I agree with Larry, you should definitly try and charge them again, preferably with a complete discharge of some sort, I don't know what charger you got. The C-9000 might be a good idea for you. Wish they made that one in a 8-bat version. Personally I use three C801D cause I got a lot of batteries to charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryF Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 Only if they have not been used for months. Then they should be run through a charge and discharge cycle. Again, the Maha charger will tell you the capacity. If it is still low, try another cycle. If you don't see major improvement on each cycle and the capacity is stlii low, trash can them. Larry F So I have to discharge them??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasmus Wedin Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 So I have to discharge them??? If I remember correctly, I think I did a full "slow-discharge-recycle" the first time I ever charged my Powerexs. To break them in. And then every third month. Also, like I've said, always slow charge them. When you got a good charge, try them out in your gear a few times so you know what the run time is and don't have to rely on the bat indicator wich will be off anyway. Thats what I do and I've never had a flat battery during shooting since I got them. Been close once though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason porter Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 They have definitely been sitting around for a few months (I no longer use these as my "work" batteries, Imedions only) and they had probably completely discharged AND were at the end of their life before I did my test. I was definitely seeing faster self-discharge times with these batteries, probably a combination of all of the above. It is what prompted me to go to the Imedions. Hi Jason, How long had the batteries been sitting around unused before you charged them? The first charge or two on a battery that has been unused for 3 months or so will not give you anywhere near full capacity. The second charge-discharge is typically 85% and the third charge is 100%. This is for a good battery. A worn out one will never recover, of course. Best, Larry F Lectro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason porter Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 No, I am sure these results were not typical!! I have 2 of the C801 chargers and since I "upgraded" to the Imedions, I purchased the C-9000s, which I use for conditioning and analyzing only (or mostly, atleast) I am glad you are having such great runtime with the 2700's, I was getting the same type of performance until I didn't! BTW, These were being used on a job where they needed to be charged sometimes as much as 5 times a day!!! 23 minutes total runtime? That sounds like a joke. But I highly doubt there can be such a huge difference between batteries of the same brand. I don't have any lectros to test on, but I just did a test with the, now 36 days old, Powerexes in one of my Sennheiser 2000 lavs set to 100 mW. It ran for 7 hours straight, wich is about 89% of normal max capacity. The only explanation I see is you've worn them out by fast charging and not discharging them properly. Like I said, I only do slow charge and discharge them completly every three months. It seams like the obvious conclusion, looking at our vastly different results. I agree with Larry, you should definitly try and charge them again, preferably with a complete discharge of some sort, I don't know what charger you got. The C-9000 might be a good idea for you. Wish they made that one in a 8-bat version. Personally I use three C801D cause I got a lot of batteries to charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryF Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 My three months statement doesn't apply to Eneloops and other low discharge NiMh batteries. Their time scale is on the order of a year or so. LarryF Hi Jason, How long had the batteries been sitting around unused before you charged them? The first charge or two on a battery that has been unused for 3 months or so will not give you anywhere near full capacity. The second charge-discharge is typically 85% and the third charge is 100%. This is for a good battery. A worn out one will never recover, of course. Best, Larry F Lectro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davideo Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 I use the same batteries in my SMQV and I get at least 6 hours from it. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasmus Wedin Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 No, I am sure these results were not typical!! I have 2 of the C801 chargers and since I "upgraded" to the Imedions, I purchased the C-9000s, which I use for conditioning and analyzing only (or mostly, atleast) I am glad you are having such great runtime with the 2700's, I was getting the same type of performance until I didn't! BTW, These were being used on a job where they needed to be charged sometimes as much as 5 times a day!!! I'm pretty surprised myself actually, by my own test results. I was shure there was gonna be atleast some sort of memory effect after 1,5 years and a much larger discharge after 35 days on the shelf. That was a very plesant surprise. I guess fast charging 5 times a day is not that apreciated by rechargables. I solved it by buying double the amount of batteries that I needed for all my gear. That way I can always soft charge them, cause there is never any hurry to get fresh ones. And since they hold their charge so good there is now way I could drain them fast enough to be able to charge them 5 times a day, even if I worked a 24 hours shift. Doesn't the C-9000 have some sort of "resurect"-function for dead batteries? Would be nice to see if you could save batteries in that state or if they're just paperweights at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 Tried the 'ressurect' function (actually called break in) on the last 4 2700's I had. They failed the initial impedance check that the charger does, meaning they should be binned. These batteries had been abused though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 " So I have to discharge them??? " conditioning... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted February 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Just got the MH-C9000 charger. I am a little confused with the setup. When I select Charge or Refresh/analize how much should I set the discharge rate - "MA"? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sound Grab Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Just got the MH-C9000 charger. I am a little confused with the setup. When I select Charge or Refresh/analize how much should I set the discharge rate - "MA"? Thanks I believe the manual has a general number, and this is off the Maha website. What are the recommended charging and discharging current for my battery? The recommended charging current is 0.5C, or 0.5 times the battery capacity. The recommended discharging current is 0.25C, or 0.25C times the battery capacity. Here are some settings for common batteries: 2700mAh Charge: 1300mA Discharge: 700mA 2650mAh Charge: 1300mA Discharge: 700mA 2500mAh Charge: 1200mA Discharge: 600mA 2300mAh Charge: 1100mA Discharge: 600mA 2200mAh Charge: 1100mA Discharge: 600mA 2100mAh Charge: 1000mA Discharge: 500mA 2000mAh Charge: 1000mA Discharge: 500mA 1000mAh Charge: 500mA Discharge: 200mA 900mAh Charge: 400mA Discharge: 200mA 850mAh Charge: 400mA Discharge: 200mA 800mAh Charge: 400mA Discharge: 200mA 700mAh Charge: 300mA Discharge: 200mA 650mAh Charge: 300mA Discharge: 200mA 600mAh Charge: 300mA Discharge: 200mA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Thanks. It was not in the manual I got. I believe the manual has a general number, and this is off the Maha website. What are the recommended charging and discharging current for my battery? The recommended charging current is 0.5C, or 0.5 times the battery capacity. The recommended discharging current is 0.25C, or 0.25C times the battery capacity. Here are some settings for common batteries: 2700mAh Charge: 1300mA Discharge: 700mA 2650mAh Charge: 1300mA Discharge: 700mA 2500mAh Charge: 1200mA Discharge: 600mA 2300mAh Charge: 1100mA Discharge: 600mA 2200mAh Charge: 1100mA Discharge: 600mA 2100mAh Charge: 1000mA Discharge: 500mA 2000mAh Charge: 1000mA Discharge: 500mA 1000mAh Charge: 500mA Discharge: 200mA 900mAh Charge: 400mA Discharge: 200mA 850mAh Charge: 400mA Discharge: 200mA 800mAh Charge: 400mA Discharge: 200mA 700mAh Charge: 300mA Discharge: 200mA 650mAh Charge: 300mA Discharge: 200mA 600mAh Charge: 300mA Discharge: 200mA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 How long does the Refresh/analyze take????? It has been 9 hours.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 2570mah 1.44V is the result from 2 that finished. is 1.4V normal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryF Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Yes. It will immediately fall to 1.25-1.2V when it is being used. Cheers, Larry F Lectro 2570mah 1.44V is the result from 2 that finished. is 1.4V normal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Thanks Larry, Yes. It will immediately fall to 1.25-1.2V when it is being used. Cheers, Larry F Lectro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 How long does the Refresh/analyze take????? It has been 9 hours.... Refresh/analyze takes a while, I think the manual says up to 14 hours (depending on the state of your batteries and how fast you charge/discharge them). Break-in takes anywhere from 32-48 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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