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Getting Sound onto a Red Epic


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91 replies to this topic

#1
Loopless

Loopless
I have heard that it is next to impossible to get sound onto a Red Epic. What is the deal with that? Has anyone succeeded? If so, then how did you do it?

I would like to attach a Lectrosonics IFB to the camera, seta level, and walk away. Is that possible ? ?

Somebody suggested that I try this adapter:

http://actionproduct...products_id=157

Action Products Epic Audio Adapter

#2
CCalandro

CCalandro
  • LocationLA
I did it a couple days ago. There aparently are no settings for line/mic level and all there is is a input level slider. Also the input is a stereo 1/8.
I fed a -20db sine to the wireless and set the camera level using my camera wireless reciever's level knob.

#3
John Blankenship

John Blankenship
  • LocationIndianapolis
For a reference track, I put a Sennheiser G2 on it and tweaked the level so the peaks stayed out of trouble.
John B., CAS

#4
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA
Page 12 of the Red Epic manual says the following:

The RED EPIC can record up to two discreet channels of microphone level uncompressed 24-bit, 48 KHz audio (four channels of microphone level or line level audio inputs when equipped with a PRO I/O Module), that are synchronized with video and timecode, to REDMAG 1.8” SSD media.

Input signals are routed via a high quality pre-amplifier and soft clip limiter in order to achieve the desired audio reference / recording level and to maximize dynamic range.

To assist with audio reference level setup, the camera provides a color-coded 4dB per division Peak Level meter in the Graphical User Interface with 0dBu (-20dBFS) and +4dBu (-16dBFS) Witness Marks. Meter range is –36dBu to +20dBu (-56dBFS to 0dBFS) with audio input type and audio input clipping indication.

Audio monitor output options include a 2-channel headphone output on the camera Brain and 2-channel line level analog outputs from the optional PRO I/O Module, plus 2-channel and 4-channel 24-bit 48KHz uncompressed digital audio embedded in the HD-SDI and HDMI outputs.

MICROPHONE LEVEL ANALOG INPUTS
The recording level of Microphone inputs are affected by the sensitivity of the microphone and the Gain setting of the camera’s pre-amplifier. Available pre-amplifier range is +8dB to +62dB, with a default value of +32dB. The camera operator should choose a Gain value that aligns the input signal to the 0dBu reference line drawn through the camera’s peak meter (or +4dBu line if referencing to that level).

This setting provides up to 30dB of input signal headroom above reference 0dBu level before clipping (26dB for +4dBu reference level) and maximizes the signal to noise ratio of the 24-bit digital recording.


LINE LEVEL ANALOG INPUTS
The recording level of Line inputs are affected only by the signal provided by the field production sound mixer or other external line level source. The sound mixer operator should choose a mixer output level that aligns a reference tone signal to the 0dBu (0.775 volts RMS / -20dBFS) reference mark drawn through the camera’s Peak Meter, or if using +4dB as reference level, a mixer output level that aligns a reference tone signal to the +4dBu (1.23 Volts RMS / -16dBFS) reference mark.

The 0dBu setting provides up to 24dB of input signal headroom above reference level before clipping (20dB for +4dBu reference level) and the maximum signal to noise ratio for the 24-bit digital recording.

I agree with John's advice: just throw a scratch mix to it, keep the levels a little lower than normal, and it should be OK at least for syncing. I'm not a fan of using these cameras for actual sound master recordings.

Further research on the Red user group indicates that the camera is set up only for mike-level signals (at the moment), so the only recourse is to put a pad in line or send a mike-level signal to camera. I suspect changing the camera to accept line-level signals would be a hardware mod, and I think audio is very low on their priority list at the moment.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#5
hornbuckle

hornbuckle
  • LocationMelbourne, Australia
Hey all,

I did a 2 camera shoot with an epic and a scarlet art week and put a Lectro IFB for a scratch track and had massive issues with range. The Ifb unit in to headphones a couple of feet away from the cameras worked flawlessly but when mounted on the side there was constant splatting and 'fringing'.

I can only assume that these camera put out a lot of RF hash.

We ended up running a cable to each camera and this worked perfectly with tone at a reference of -40 dbfs.

Cheers

Rob

#6
Arnold F.

Arnold F.
The irony is that guys on the RED forums will do just about anything to try to do the sound themselves. They call it Run and Gun, which to them means not so much a quickly-moving shoot, as meaning "no sound guy." One even referred to a Production Mixer as "extra baggage." I'm not clear how any RED, even the Scarlet, could be thought to be appropriate for run and gun style shooting in any case. Now, merely owning a camera means not only that you're a Cinematographer but a Production Mixer as well. End of rant.

#7
Toy Robot

Toy Robot
  • LocationBrooklyn, NY
I had success running a mono hop through a Wooden Camera A Box, but the user interface on the Epic is not friendly for mixers. Also keep in mind that the 1/8" mini jacks on the Epic are wired like an XLR, so you won't be able to run a standard 1/8" mini TRS out from your scratch rx into the camera directly. You'll need an XLR adapter like the A-Box or equivalent, or else you simply won't get a signal into the camera. Set mic/line on the rx, don't bother in camera.

\\\\\\ Alex Ramirez
Toy Robot Studios
FCC Call Sign WQPU870


#8
CCalandro

CCalandro
  • LocationLA

I had success running a mono hop through a Wooden Camera A Box, but the user interface on the Epic is not friendly for mixers. Also keep in mind that the 1/8" mini jacks on the Epic are wired like an XLR, so you won't be able to run a standard 1/8" mini TRS out from your scratch rx into the camera directly. You'll need an XLR adapter like the A-Box or equivalent, or else you simply won't get a signal into the camera. Set mic/line on the rx, don't bother in camera.


I don't think this is right. My experience with the epic the other day tells me that the mini jack on the camera is wired for stereo. It is not wired like an xlr.
Tip is left
Ring is right


someone correct me if im wrong

#9
Toy Robot

Toy Robot
  • LocationBrooklyn, NY
From the Wooden Camera site regarding the A-Box:

"Adapts mini 3.5mm balanced audio inputs to industry standard XLR."


Where on a standard TRS unbalanced 3.5mm you are right, that is a stereo signal. However, my understanding is that the balanced XLR is Pin 1 = Ground, Pin 2 = Hot, & Pin 3 = Cold, thereby creating a balanced mono connection for one individual channel, not a stereo connection with L&R channels respectively.

I attempted to use a standard, unbalanced TRS 3.5 mm cable directly from rx to camera mic input that failed to transport an audio signal in either one of the individual channels. When the A-box was put to use, the blanaced version of the XLR to TRS cable transmits signal properly, since the flow is now XLR to TRS balanced mono - Ground, Hot, Cold.

I believe the difference is in the cabling. Otherwise, a TRS 3.5mm directly from rx to camera should have transmitted the same signal as the following layout, which worked for me on set for a week:

TRS 3.5mm from rx to XLR, then XLR into A-Box to TRS 3.5mm into camera. This layout worked, where direct 3.5mm to camera mic channels one and two did not.

It also doesn't make sense to have a stereo channel on both mic one (1) and mic two (2) inputs. This would mean that mic channel one could accept a stereo signal, and mic channel two could also accept a stereo signal, instead of two balanced mono channels that make up Right and Left, Stereo.

Please correct me if I'm wrong and I'll happily update my posts so as not to confuse other readers with any falsities.

\\\\\\ Alex Ramirez
Toy Robot Studios
FCC Call Sign WQPU870


#10
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA

The irony is that guys on the RED forums will do just about anything to try to do the sound themselves. They call it Run and Gun, which to them means not so much a quickly-moving shoot, as meaning "no sound guy." One even referred to a Production Mixer as "extra baggage." I'm not clear how any RED, even the Scarlet, could be thought to be appropriate for run and gun style shooting in any case.

I agree 100%, Arnold. It's appalling, the amount of ignorance that goes on over there. I'm constantly baffled by the overall belief that sound is either easy or unimportant. The number of users who want to slap a cheap mike on top of the camera and use that for their shoots is incredible.

Why would anybody want to spend upwards of $40,000 for a camera, at least $20,000 for a lens, plus $5,000 for a tripod and head, plus another $5000 for storage and power... and then skimp on sound? 90% of their problems with timecode and sound could be solved simply by hiring a pro.

There are a handful of people who do get it, and I also personally know some Red shooters who are good, solid guys who get the importance of good sound.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#11
mikefilosa

mikefilosa
  • LocationAtlanta, GA

I agree 100%, Arnold. It's appalling, the amount of ignorance that goes on over there. I'm constantly baffled by the overall belief that sound is either easy or unimportant. The number of users who want to slap a cheap mike on top of the camera and use that for their shoots is incredible.


Guys and gals, I don't get upset anymore over this mentality - let them die the painful death their methodology will deliver....
With regards to "the death of wireless" -- well, I guess they are stoking their own fire.... These are idiots / pretenders that are on the fringe anyway..... anyone who has done a professional shoot even ONCE would know that wireless mics are here to stay for a long long time...

Frankly, with the Alexa leaping to the forefront of desirable HD tools, at least around here.... I would venture to say that perhaps RED and it's newer models might well be on the steady decline. Andf this new Canon that is coming out will have quite an impact in the near future..... ( at least we'll have professional XLR Ins for a change... )

MF
Michael Filosa, CAS
Atlanta, GA
www.afpusa.tv

#12
Arnold F.

Arnold F.
By "death of wireless" are you referring to the article on Zacuto's website?

I'm not convinced that the C300 will take over. As I understand it, despite having a 4K sensor, it only outputs HD. I think we're moving into a 4K world. Didn't someone preview an 8K TV at CES?



Guys and gals, I don't get upset anymore over this mentality - let them die the painful death their methodology will deliver....
With regards to "the death of wireless" -- well, I guess they are stoking their own fire.... These are idiots / pretenders that are on the fringe anyway..... anyone who has done a professional shoot even ONCE would know that wireless mics are here to stay for a long long time...

Frankly, with the Alexa leaping to the forefront of desirable HD tools, at least around here.... I would venture to say that perhaps RED and it's newer models might well be on the steady decline. Andf this new Canon that is coming out will have quite an impact in the near future..... ( at least we'll have professional XLR Ins for a change... )

MF



#13
John Blankenship

John Blankenship
  • LocationIndianapolis
On the Epic shoot I did the shooter had the Wooden box mentioned above.

I imagine if you wired up an XLR to TRS with all three pins properly connected it would work as well. An XLR to TS might also work fine if you connected pin three to ground, and as the ring pin would then be shorted to the sleeve on the camera input, that should work. Then, again, we're talking about a Red, so who knows what methodology they've employed when it comes to the audio circuits.
John B., CAS

#14
Jim Gilchrist

Jim Gilchrist
  • LocationMid-Atlantic

I imagine if you wired up an XLR to TRS with all three pins properly connected it would work as well.

It will.
Best regards,
Jim

#15
carbonhobbit

carbonhobbit
  • LocationSomewhere between Iowa and Nebraska
I was hard wired to an Epic this week both TC and audio. During set up everything was working fine. Camera dept. did a power down to reboot from a lock-up. Didn't think anything about it, but when we went to roll, couldn't get any sound. I unhooked everything, they do a reboot but couldn't get the sound to come back. The camera has a box that has two xlr connects that go to two cables to hook into the 1/8th plugs. I had unhooked at the xlr, but forgot the 1/8th. After going without audio for first interview, AC pulls out just one of the 1/8th plugs and plugs it back in and sound comes back on both channels. The rest of the shoot goes off without a hitch. Audio was recorded on 744, epic sound was for scratch only.

#16
CCalandro

CCalandro
  • LocationLA

It will.
Best regards,
Jim


It cannot be wired as a standard TRS. You need to wire it for unbalanced.

#17
Mark O'Russa

Mark O'Russa
  • LocationSpokane, WA
From the manual:
Posted Image
Posted Image

Mark

ADRList.com - ADR list creation and management for professionals in the film and television post production industry.
FCC Call Sign: WQPV695


#18
CCalandro

CCalandro
  • LocationLA
guess I was wrong.

the camera guy I worked with thought they were stereo inputs, not balanced inputs....

#19
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA

With regards to "the death of wireless" -- well, I guess they are stoking their own fire.... These are idiots / pretenders that are on the fringe anyway..... anyone who has done a professional shoot even ONCE would know that wireless mics are here to stay for a long long time...

This is as stupid as the guys who buy digital cameras and say, "wow, I can shoot at an ISO of 12,000! That means I won't have to light it -- I'll just use available light!"
Posted Image

I'm not convinced that the C300 will take over. As I understand it, despite having a 4K sensor, it only outputs HD. I think we're moving into a 4K world. Didn't someone preview an 8K TV at CES?

Thoughtful piece on CNet about 4K TV sets: Why 4K TVs Are Stupid.

I keep saying, nobody can really see really good HD at home anyway, not on marginal consumer sets, highly-compressed cable, or problematic broadcasts. 99% of the sets out there can't even do 10-bit color. I think they need to perfect HD before we move on to a higher standard.

I do think 4K makes sense for theatrical delivery, but I'm dubious of the need for it on a set below 72" in an average home. And I'm even more skeptical about how they're going to deliver 4K programs to consumers. 4K is 52 megabytes per frame (1.2GB per second!), which is a huge, huge amount of bandwidth. Even assuming drastic compression, it's still many times greater than, say Blu-ray HD quality -- which we also can't see on cable or satellite.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#20
soundslikejustin

soundslikejustin
  • LocationBrisbane, Australia
Just out of interest...how would/do you deliver 4K theatrically? Hard-drive array? Compressed?
Justin Harrison
Brisbane, QLD, Australia

#21
ShubiSnax

ShubiSnax
  • LocationMichigan

Just out of interest...how would/do you deliver 4K theatrically? Hard-drive array? Compressed?



Both.
Brandon Shubitowski
Detroit, MI
www.shubisnax.com

#22
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA

Just out of interest...how would/do you deliver 4K theatrically? Hard-drive array? Compressed?

They've been delivering 4K DCP files for some time now. I think Girl with the Dragon Tattoo is one of the first movies to get a fairly wide 4K release. They usually use all encrypted JPEG2000 files, slap the files on portable Firewire or eSATA drives, and ship them to theaters in bright orange Pelican cases. I saw a big stack of those drives in a (completely empty) theater lobby out here in the valley a few weeks ago, at the end of a late-night show, and I was sorely tempted to walk away with a few. No security at all.

Note that Dragon Tattoo was shot with a Red One and a Red Epic, and is a visually-arresting movie that's already been nominated for ASC awards and several Oscars. Director David Fincher is a big Red fan.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#23
dustinguished

dustinguished
  • LocationChicago, Illinois
The camera guys that refer to sound engineers as "extra baggage" are the same that like to tell you a shot's MOS just because they think sound just gets in their way. They'll tell themselves that post audio will have time and resources to clean up their mess, when in actuality, it could have been quicker, cheaper, and more authentic to just roll the audio half of the time. They don't see the Big Picture of the production or the story, those camera ops just see the picture, period. Maybe they watch everything on Mute... I dunno
Dustin Berta
dustinguished@yahoo.com
www.dustinguished.com

#24
dustinguished

dustinguished
  • LocationChicago, Illinois
When I used to work on indi films I had some fun with the acronyms....
ADR = Additional Doe Required (that always got the producer thinking)
M.O.S. = Moron on Set (when the DP tried to tell me when not to do my job, and made me feel unwelcome)

I'm going back to my beer now and promise not to post anymore tonight!
Dustin Berta
dustinguished@yahoo.com
www.dustinguished.com

#25
studiomprd

studiomprd
  • LocationHollywood CA
" guess I was wrong. "
Thus my strong belief: < HAT > ::)
SENATOR Mike Michaels, c.a.s.
Studio M Productions

#26
FSBELLA

FSBELLA
  • LocationBurbank, CA.

I agree 100%, Arnold. It's appalling, the amount of ignorance that goes on over there. I'm constantly baffled by the overall belief that sound is either easy or unimportant. The number of users who want to slap a cheap mike on top of the camera and use that for their shoots is incredible.

Why would anybody want to spend upwards of $40,000 for a camera, at least $20,000 for a lens, plus $5,000 for a tripod and head, plus another $5000 for storage and power... and then skimp on sound? 90% of their problems with timecode and sound could be solved simply by hiring a pro.

There are a handful of people who do get it, and I also personally know some Red shooters who are good, solid guys who get the importance of good sound.


remember Mark- " When it Sounds Good- It Looks Better"
dont skimp on sound-hire a pro
"When it Sounds Good, It Looks Better"

#27
Chas Gordon

Chas Gordon
  • LocationColorado
So I have my first Epic shoot coming up in a week for HBO, some feature about boxing or something like that...

Anyhow, I've never had the opportunity to work with one of the Epic and after spending the day doing some research and learning about these cameras, I find I'm feeling the same way about them as when the first RED Ones came out. Really, 3.5mm audio in??? What, was the TA-3 too bulky? Probably so, they needed more room for heat sinks...

I have to talk with the camera op and producer tomorrow to see what they are expecting. Right out of the gate I'm thinking that sending a scratch track via G2 unit should satisfy edits need for audio on the camera, but the "money will be in the bag" as we like to say.

From my initial talks with the woman that hired me these are some sit down interviews and some B-roll at the Olympic Training Center so I'll record using my 552's recorder. I have an SB-3 to supply TC, but here's a question for those that know these cameras. Will the Epic hold TC long enough to be separated from the SB-3 for a short time and still be reliable? I could re-sync between interviews or even just hard wire TC in for the sit downs. At this point I have to assume they have the proper 4 pin Lemo to BNC connector. Then I could supply both the 552 and Epic with TC for edit. It's a single camera shoot so it shouldn't be that hard. Or did I just bring down the wrath of the Stupid Camera Gods upon myself?
________________
   Chas Gordon

  Gordon Sound
________________

#28
Toy Robot

Toy Robot
  • LocationBrooklyn, NY

So I have my first Epic shoot coming up in a week for HBO, some feature about boxing or something like that...

Anyhow, I've never had the opportunity to work with one of the Epic and after spending the day doing some research and learning about these cameras, I find I'm feeling the same way about them as when the first RED Ones came out. Really, 3.5mm audio in??? What, was the TA-3 too bulky? Probably so, they needed more room for heat sinks...

I have to talk with the camera op and producer tomorrow to see what they are expecting. Right out of the gate I'm thinking that sending a scratch track via G2 unit should satisfy edits need for audio on the camera, but the "money will be in the bag" as we like to say.

From my initial talks with the woman that hired me these are some sit down interviews and some B-roll at the Olympic Training Center so I'll record using my 552's recorder. I have an SB-3 to supply TC, but here's a question for those that know these cameras. Will the Epic hold TC long enough to be separated from the SB-3 for a short time and still be reliable? I could re-sync between interviews or even just hard wire TC in for the sit downs. At this point I have to assume they have the proper 4 pin Lemo to BNC connector. Then I could supply both the 552 and Epic with TC for edit. It's a single camera shoot so it shouldn't be that hard. Or did I just bring down the wrath of the Stupid Camera Gods upon myself?


Chas, I'm going make two observations:
  • Don't forget that your hop from G2 to the cam will still require a Wooden Camera A-Box or equivalent (see previous posts in this thread).
  • Don't ever 'assume' anything on a shoot, particularly regarding cabling (4 pin Lemo to BNC). Find out.
And good luck!

\\\\\\ Alex Ramirez
Toy Robot Studios
FCC Call Sign WQPU870


#29
Chas Gordon

Chas Gordon
  • LocationColorado
I'm not assuming anything (I've been doing audio for about 15 years, but thanks). I'll be talking with them tomorrow. It was too late to talk with them today (MST vs EST).
________________
   Chas Gordon

  Gordon Sound
________________

#30
John Blankenship

John Blankenship
  • LocationIndianapolis
It's my understanding that the breakout box that is used for Time code and sync, etc. is backordered for a couple of months.
John B., CAS

#31
carbonhobbit

carbonhobbit
  • LocationSomewhere between Iowa and Nebraska
The epic will hold sync, at lease til the battery needs changing. When receiving TC, a green TC will light up and then go out when TC is unplugged from the camera. But no locked chain like the Red One. Have a smart slate and show it often. After that it's a wing and a prayer.

Scott....

#32
Rick Reineke

Rick Reineke
  • LocationNYC
When using the G2/3 receiver, make sure the camera end of the plug is UNBALANCED, Using a stereo 3.5mm plug at that end will result in no audio.... however the Epic will 'sense' a connection, posably fooling the Cam op into thinking 'we have audio'. Double check with headphones, there are small meter disply as well if activated. Everything is in the menu, including a level adj. which the privious models did not have.
Refugee from the spam infested RAMPS

#33
Toy Robot

Toy Robot
  • LocationBrooklyn, NY

I'm not assuming anything (I've been doing audio for about 15 years, but thanks). I'll be talking with them tomorrow. It was too late to talk with them today (MST vs EST).


I didn't mean to offend. Was just trying to lend a helpful hand. Again, best of luck!

\\\\\\ Alex Ramirez
Toy Robot Studios
FCC Call Sign WQPU870


#34
Chas Gordon

Chas Gordon
  • LocationColorado
Oh, no offense at all, I was just letting you know that I'm not a total newbie to this industry. One of the best lessons to learn doing this job is that you better have a thick skin. Otherwise you'll go home crying every night! ;)

So after talking with the camera op and producer today I got some more info about the shoot. It's pretty much what I was thinking. Some sit down interviews with an up coming boxing star training for the 2012 London games. Talk with him, his trainer, his father and maybe a few others that we run across at the OTC in Colorado Springs, CO. Then follow him through his training. Basically he always has a mic on (except for when he's in the ring training, then the trainer has it) and boom everything else. So I'll record to my 552. It's a run & gun style shoot. So I'll take my SB-3 and tee off the TC out, one side to my 552 and the other to a wireless hop over to the camera. Anyone see any issues with that plan?

The camera is going to be a rental (either from here in Denver or one coming in from NY), so I can tell them exactly what I want in the package. I'll ask for both the A-Box and the 4 pin lemo to BNC inputs cable. Here's the funny part, the producer said that they don't really need a scratch track to the camera. They just sync the audio tracks and then edit. Obviously TC is really important here. OK, but the producer thought a scratch track would be a good idea. Not sure what I'll do with that. But I'll be talking with them again next week once they decide which camera they are going to get. I can't imagine that a rental house wouldn't have the extra bits (TC in cable and A-Box) for the camera. Again, I'll find out.
________________
   Chas Gordon

  Gordon Sound
________________

#35
Chas Gordon

Chas Gordon
  • LocationColorado
Well I talked with the rental house today. The 4 pin Lemo to BNC's comes standard with the rental package. Thank You!

And they got me an A-Box. The rental guy had no clue what that was, but I told them who made it and he found it. But that too will be in the package. So it looks like all my needs for this camera will be met. Should be a straight forward shoot I hope. And I'm going to have to rely on the cmera ops knowledge of the menus to get me through them. GAHK!

Maybe I should have told the guy no to bother with the A-Box and told the prod company that there wasn't an A-Box to be had, so no scratch track...

Wish me luck!
________________
   Chas Gordon

  Gordon Sound
________________

#36
Christopher Mills

Christopher Mills
Early tests here show that the A Box is a good idea. It cant be that expensive to rent, as it retails for $200 or so.
If the camera locks up, you may have to disconnect both the xlr in lines to the A box, and the mini plug from the camera, reboot it, then re patch both sets of cables.
This has been needed at least once with an Epic.
No experience yet on the stability of the TC... will be doing more tests "soon"

#37
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA
Yes, there's been much talk about the Epic audio lock-ups on the RedUser forum. I believe the last couple of software updates have solved this problem. As far as I know, there's no timecode issues with the Epic provided you jam it from an onboard box and rejam after every drive change or reboot.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#38
David Levine

David Levine
  • LocationBoulder Colorado
Mistype

#39
Chas Gordon

Chas Gordon
  • LocationColorado

Yes, there's been much talk about the Epic audio lock-ups on the RedUser forum. I believe the last couple of software updates have solved this problem. As far as I know, there's no timecode issues with the Epic provided you jam it from an onboard box and rejam after every drive change or reboot.


So Marc, are you saying that I should just jam sync it and not feed it continous TC via wireless feed?

Also, since the producer said that they have never used or had a scratch track before on other shoots with the Epic and that the camera might lock up because of incoming audio, I might bin the whole idea of a scratch track, even though I know they'd love it in edit.

Thoughts, ideas, experiences?
________________
   Chas Gordon

  Gordon Sound
________________

#40
John Blankenship

John Blankenship
  • LocationIndianapolis
If they've given you the thumbs up to go without a scratch track, I'd say treat it as a film shoot and enjoy.

With both time code and a slate clap you're well covered. Since it's still a Red I'd give it a continuous time code feed.
John B., CAS

#41
Chas Gordon

Chas Gordon
  • LocationColorado
Thanks John, thats what I thought. I'll do that.
________________
   Chas Gordon

  Gordon Sound
________________

#42
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA

So Marc, are you saying that I should just jam sync it and not feed it continous TC via wireless feed?

Yes, that has worked fine for me on Alexa, Red One, and Epic shoots. Camera jams to TC box; TC box jammed from recorder. Slate jammed from recorder. I rejam everything after lunch, or if the recorder powers down (which I try not to do). Remind the AC to rejam the camera in the event of a power reboot or a crash. In the past couple of years, I haven't seen a need to rejam every time a drive is changed, but that was an issue in the early days.

Also, since the producer said that they have never used or had a scratch track before on other shoots with the Epic and that the camera might lock up because of incoming audio, I might bin the whole idea of a scratch track, even though I know they'd love it in edit.

The scratch track is totally a decision by post. If they don't need it, no problem. I've done shoots with and without it. Ideally, they should do a test prior to the shoot and see if sound causes lock ups.

I mean no disrespect to Red, but I have seen Red crashes and lock ups without any audio at all, so the camera does this sometimes. I think the cameras can make beautiful pictures, and they're better every day, but it is a computer-based product with an operating system. Crap is gonna happen.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#43
Chas Gordon

Chas Gordon
  • LocationColorado
Well the shoot went pretty well. I did a double system kind of deal. I recorded at my 552 as there was only ever the need for two channels to be recorded. Lav on subject, boom on everything else. Then I also feed a left and right to the camera via the A-Box. Set levels to it and it worked out pretty well. Pretty easy really. The producer wanted to see if this was possible and if it would work out.

As it turns out, this shoot was also a test to see if the Epic is a viable format for HBO Sports to shoot on. I misunderstood the producer when we talked on the phone about what they had done in the past. The next shoot will be based around the Alexa. Kind of an expensive way to go about testing it out. From a visual stand point, the Epic did it's job pretty well. Lots of high frame rate shots. But there was a lot of sync sound stuff as well. I recorded over 40 tracks. Some of them over 40 minutes in length for the sit down interviews.

As there is no playback available on these cameras we had to do some quick scrub through checks after the media was off loaded to massive drives. That takes a while actually. So I couldn't always get a a good listen in, but what I did hear sounded good. Of course I was also backing that up with my own recordings that we off loaded after the shoot.

I kept it all synced via my Denecke SB-3 to my 552 TC in and then I'd spike the camera every time it's battery was changed.I used my iPod Touch with JumpStart LTC to start the Time of Day TC. Once the clock in the SB-3 was started I didn't resync the iPod app again.

So if they don't like the sound on the Epic recordings, then they can just use the ones recorded at the 552.

Also, as it turns out, that 4 pin lemo to 3 BNCs, the yellow is the TC, not the white. Green in Gen lock and I'm not sure what the white one was, but it didn't work when I tried to feed TC to the white BNC.

We had no lock ups or any problems. Over all, the shoot went well.
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   Chas Gordon

  Gordon Sound
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#44
Doug Beatty

Doug Beatty
  • LocationLos Angeles

As there is no playback available on these cameras we had to do some quick scrub through checks after the media was off loaded to massive drives.


Playback for Epic/Scarlet is available in camera now, but not for audio. You have to load the clips into Redcine-X app to preview the audio embedded in the R3D files. RED says this is on the horizon, but I'm not holding my breath that it will be ready soon.

I had a shoot with Epic this past weekend and so say there were a few quirks is an understatement. It's an amazing cinema camera, for sure. However, like any cinema camera, you'll need to record second system. Epic/Scarlet shoots are no exception.

I was lucky enough to have access to the camera before rolling so I could enable unbalanced analog audio in (balanced signal in isn't supported yet..also, phantom power isn't available either *sigh*) and fed a mono line level mix out to one of the 3.5mm TRS mic inputs.

I found around 24-30db gain on Epic to be the sweet spot, anything higher than that and the noise was pretty bad in camera. At least, I think it was because the headphone amp on Epic is TERRIBLE. You have to crank output all the way up to -1db to get a good HP signal.

I recorded as close to -6db as I could on the mix which gave me about 12db of headroom on camera. I wanted to be sure there was no clipping, but I think that was slightly low in the end. Good enough for a scratch track, I suppose. No complaints from the client so I'm fine with that.

I stayed tethered to camera the whole time and didn't have a need for TC, but soon I will be experimenting with my Zaxnet via my Nomad to ERX1TCDs on a Scarlet.

I think that's the best, most lightweight time code and scratch track solution available for these cameras right now.

Overall, Epic never once shut down or locked up. I think once I get comfortable with the (lack of) sound options on Epic/Scarlet everything will work out fine. Just a whole new set of hurdles and workarounds I'll have to incorporate into my bag of tricks. Nothing new in that regard, I suppose.
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#45
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA

Playback for Epic/Scarlet is available in camera now, but not for audio. You have to load the clips into Redcine-X app to preview the audio embedded in the R3D files. RED says this is on the horizon, but I'm not holding my breath that it will be ready soon.

There are quite a few users complaining that Adobe Premiere is unable to read the audio embedded in Red files at the moment. I'm not sure whose fault this is -- Red's or Adobe's. I'm not convinced recording on the camera is good for anything except a backup.

I recorded as close to -6db as I could on the mix which gave me about 12db of headroom on camera. I wanted to be sure there was no clipping, but I think that was slightly low in the end. Good enough for a scratch track, I suppose.

Careful reading of the manual reveals that there is a built-in limiter in the Red Epic and the Red Scarlet which is non-defeatable. There's no info as to when the limiter kicks in, or what its settings are.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#46
Doug Beatty

Doug Beatty
  • LocationLos Angeles

There are quite a few users complaining that Adobe Premiere is unable to read the audio embedded in Red files at the moment. I'm not sure whose fault this is -- Red's or Adobe's. I'm not convinced recording on the camera is good for anything except a backup.


I agree completely. I'm pretty sure with CS6s impending release at NAB 2012, they'll have this worked out. At least I hope they do because it is possible to get audio playback with this hack involving files from Lightroom 4:

ok guys...I GOT AUDIO TO WORK IN PREMIERE PRO CS5.5!!!!... Posted Image but it takes a specific weird trick that you have to do in a specific order for it to work (not sure why but I am posting exactly what worked for me). This is on a window machine. But I believe it should work on a MAC....
Here are the steps: (please follow them precisely)

1) download and install LightRoom 4
2) move C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5\Plug-ins\Common\ImporterRED.prmto new backup folder of your choice
3) move C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5\32\ImporterREDServer.exeto new backup folder of your choice

4) now copy C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 4\Support\DynamicLinkMediaServer\dynamiclinkmedias erver\1.0\Plug-ins\Common\ImporterRED.prm to
C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5\Plug-ins\Common

5) Copy C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 4\Support\DynamicLinkMediaServer\dynamiclinkmedias erver\1.0\ImporterREDServer.exe to
C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5\32
6) launch Premiere Cs 5.5...you will now notice that NONE of your R3d are loading anymore....don't panic! Close Premiere and follow the next step
7) copy ONLY the original ImporterRED.prm that you copied initially to a backup folder and replace the existing (broken) one.
8) launch Premiere you can load your Epic file with audio support!

I have not tested its stability enough yet...but I have been editing for an hour and I have had no Problems. THANKS David McGavran for the hint!!!! :)

I don't want to start a new thread on this until other people confirm that it is working for them or until David says it's ok to advertise this. Keep in mind this is UNSUPORTED BY ADOBE!
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#47
Bob Marts

Bob Marts
Here's what's being said about the wiring on REDUSER.
Robert Marts, CAS
Production Sound Mixer
Seattle

#48
Rainier Davenport

Rainier Davenport
  • LocationSydney, Australia
What about gong from unbalanced 3.5mm TRS from a Lectro 100, to the Epic? Theoretically that should just work without having to do any modifications at all to the cable.
I walk quietly and carry a big stick

#49
fatfatjames

fatfatjames
  • LocationSingapore
do you guys have the problem of the epic or scarlet camera disabling audio when they power up? i have this problem and every time they change battery i have to un-plug and plug my audio cable in to get the camera to enable audio?

#50
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA
Yes, this is a known issue that they're working on. Also, the latest Epic firmware build has provided the ability to turn off the limiters.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant