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Jeff Wexler

Need some advice regarding manufacturers

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Anyone here who is a r.a.m.p.s. newsgroup participant is painfully aware of the conflicts and controversy that seem to plague that group with regards to participation by equipment manufacturers, dealers and anyone else who could be viewed as having the wrong agenda for our "pure" newsgroup. I have my own personal feelings about all of this but I would like some feedback from members here regarding whether equipment companies (and possibly dealers) should be welcome in this group. None of those people have posted here, yet, but I am considering putting up a section, a board, specifically to invite the participation of equipment companies, vendors and dealers. This would not be a place for equipment companies or dealers to have free advertising space, nor would it be a replacement for the support sites that most of these companies already have. It would be a place that could be more narrowly focused and equipment specific, from the perspective of the people who are with these companies.

The area on this forum, unlike r.a.m.p.s., would be obviously delineated, so that people for whom this is of no interest need not read or post in that area.

So, what does anyone think? I am open to input on this topic (but if even the topic is of no interest my feelings will not be hurt).

Regards, your host:  Jeff Wexler

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Jeff,

I'm painfully aware of the ongoing tirades on RAMPS by some who think that any manufacturer info is a subliminal attempt at advertising. That said I believe that we're smart enough to know what's the wheat and what's the chaff.

While our mutual friend Glenn Sanders can be a bit over enthusiastic at times, I for one appreciate his style and knowledge. Perhaps it's my N.Y. upbringing that lets that stuff roll off my back.

I offer the following suggestion. When a new product hits the market and major discussion ensues about how it works and what it does or doesent do then perhaps you could invite comment from the manufacturer.

I'm open to any comments on this concept.

Eric

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Jeff,

I'm painfully aware of the ongoing tirades on RAMPS by some who think that any manufacturer info is a subliminal attempt at advertising. That said I believe that we're smart enough to know what's the wheat and what's the chaff.

I offer the following suggestion. When a new product hits the market and major discussion ensues about how it works and what it does or doesent do then perhaps you could invite comment from the manufacturer.

Eric

Thanks for the input Eric. It is also my feeling that the way this Forum is set up, with separate and defined Boards, if we have a section populated mostly by manufacturers, dealers and so forth, people are free to avoid it altgoether if it is of no interest.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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I would encourage the idea.

personally, I like to see the people who design and manufacture our equipment get a little over enthusiastic. It shows to me that they have a passion for what they do, and in the end, that means better products for us all. Encouragnig an open dialogue with the people who make our gear is truly a benefit of our niche industry. The companies being the size they are can really respond to our needs and suggestions. I"ll give you an example. I was talking to a friend who is an editor, and he was telling me about some frustration he was having with something in Final Cut Pro. He had been trying to get an answer from them for weeks with no response. I then told him about how i had casually made a suggestion about a change to boomrecorder software, and within a few hours an updated version of the software had been released. He couldn't beleive it !! Thats the kind of over enthusiasm we should encourage in all the manufactrurers we deal with.

I can handle wading through the occasional post that is a sales pitch, in order to have that level of response and commitment.

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I also agree. So many problems can be solved with intelligent communication. I have had many questions answered at NAB when talking to manufacturers face to face. Ron Meyer of PSC said that he gets 50% of his feedback in those three days at NAB. I find that almost all of them want our input. As for ramps, it only takes a few negative posters to knock a good discussion off the tracks. Hopefully that will not happen here.

Rob Young

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>The area on this forum, unlike r.a.m.p.s., would be obviously delineated, so that people for whom this is of no interest need not read or post in that area.

Irrespective of whether it's delineated or not, IMO it's of great benefit to have manufacturers onboard with any professionally oriented forum, especially one as gear intensive as our own sound craft. If anyone is offended by reading the often biased rhetoric all too common to these heated arguments, well my heart bleeds for him/her. It would be nice if all posts simply contained the facts and only the facts...but it's not always a nice world out there...and every now and then the winding path of verbal assaults leads to an insightful comment. If one doesn't want to read the crap it's easy enough to click past it. OTOH, sometimes it makes for cheap entertainment for those of us with too few other distractions or procratinations. <g>

I've learned many field tips and fixes from posts by manufacturer reps as well as the general online community. It's one of the reasons I try and keep up with RAMPS. After all the manufacturers are seeing a heck of a lot more broken gear, bugs, field mods, etc. than any of us ever will on our own (especially those of us who work in fringe or isolated areas) and they're also up to speed with their own R&D efforts, which greatly helps us in planning for our own individual systems evolution.

At the same time, we're all beta pigs wallowing in the fields of improvisation, often working under tough conditions and abusing the same gear...or using it in fashions other than that which it was originally intended. To have an open platform to discuss gear design and performance is important, for all parties. It promotes technological development within this micro-industry. To censor or cut it out altogether would be as bad or worse than the melodrama itself. The blatant mud slinging and gross advertisements do get tiring at times though. Wouldn't it be nice if basic ethics and etiquette were self-regulated by the posters themselves and not the admin? Maybe the day will come...

Just my .02

EB

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I follow a forum on the internet where there has been debate, but never the kind of incivility that is so often to be found on internet discussion groups.

The reason that the forum to which I refer is as civil as it is is that it is owned and moderated by a man who knows when to ask people to reign things in a little and that he is good at doing so in a tone that people respect.

There are several manufacturers who participate in that forum  They are intelligent people who know better than to use the forum as an advertising platform. Their participation is greatly valued.

The thing that I find attractive about this forum is that it has so far also been marked by civility. I strongly suspect that Mr. Wexler's participation will be critical to maintaining that tone. His presence, which needn't necessarily be daily, creates the atmosphere that one is a guest in someone's home, which encourages people to behave accordingly.

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I think you are on to something with having a separate forum for those posts--it would emliminate a good chunk of the stupid vitriol that is present on RAMPS and directed towards anyone from a company that makes gear we might own. Really tiresome.  What you propose might be seen as safe zone for those people, and those who object to manufacturers posting cold just stay clear of that forum.  You would also have justification for excluding posters who still attack the manufacturers on that special forum.

Philip Perkins

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Well, I wasn't thinking of a totally separate forum, it would be a section of this forum (and maybe we're just talking terminology here, forgive me). This particular style of Forum software is arranged by categories or sections called Boards. So, for example here we have a Board that is for "Images of Interest", "Current News and Announcements", "Equipment", "Workflow" and so forth. I would put a section or board that is for Manufacturers, Dealers (or maybe just "Companies" to distinguish from individuals, even though it will obviously BE individuals from the companies who will post). So when any member logs in, if there are posts to this new board, they can choose to either look at them or not. Also, replies, the ongoing discussions and questions, will also remain there (and hopefully remain civil and useful).

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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Wel, I wasn't thinking of a totally separate forum, it would be a section of this forum (and maybe we're just talking terminology here, forgive me). This particular style of Forum software is arranged by categories or sections called Boards. So, for example here we have a Board that is for "Images of Interest", "Current News and Announcements", "Equipment", "Workflow" and so forth. I would put a section or board that is for Manufacturers, Dealers (or maybe just "Companies" to distinguish from individuals, even though it will obviously BE individuals from the companies who will post). So when any member logs in, if there are posts to this new board, they can choose to either look at them or not. Also, replies, the ongoing discussions and questions, will also remain there (and hopefully remain civil and useful).

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

Sorry, yes, category.

PhilipPerkins

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Is there some way to block them from the other catagories? I certainly wouldn't mind having a category to share information with manufacturers, but in the other forums the same issues could arise.

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Is there some way to block them from the other catagories? I certainly wouldn't mind having a category to share information with manufacturers, but in the other forums the same issues could arise.

There may be a way but I would not want to do that. I am actually not completely comfortable with the nudge to manufacturers and dealers to stay in their "section" on this forum. If I have to impose restrictions in that manner, it will really not be worht it for me to keep this whole thing going. I am counting on the best aspects of human nature and a sense of common public decency to keep this space free but civilized. Most everyone I know, my professional collegues who interact with dealers, distributors, inventors, sales people and so forth, rarely seem to have any problems managing those relationships. My hope is that the spirit of those sorts of interactions can carry over to having us all get along nicely here.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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Jeff,

First of all thanks for starting this alternative.  

Personally I find the banter back and forth between manufacurers and users to be very stimulating on both ends.  I think often times though the builders envision how something will be used they never truly get the idea until they have seen it being used by us!  Then come the questions, why did you mod that, why do you need it to do that, how did you find that problem, etc.

I feel that any forum needs to include manufacturers in order to give them the feedback they need, and users the input we require.  A forum devoted to new or specific products sounds like a great way to do both for all.

I think at this point I know that when we drift from advice to one upmanship it no longer matters to me.  I've owned/tried/demo'd/repaired/replaced enough of almost everybody's gear that I have now formed my own dinosaur like opinions.  I'm happy to dish them out, and totally understand if no one wants to listen to them.  Plus the best part is when I can see a difference and make a change for another user, or myself.

Thanks again!

Be Well,

Gerry Formicola

Still from Chicago, Illinois

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Guest Glenn

Hello to all

As a manufacturer I am happy to participate on this board. I agree with all of the comments about how things should be addressed on this board. My goal here is to be a resource for you. I may not know it all but good feedback from you on how you use your gear every day has always been the inspiration for our product development. I hope to be able to check this board every day.

I will talk about our products and answer questions from you. I will refrain from comparisons to other products unless answering a direct question. It is not my goal to advertise. I would rather talk about what we are doing and how it might effect what do.

Thanks to Jeff for setting up this forum and for the opportunity to participate. Is there a spell checker included ;-)

Glenn

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I will talk about our products and answer questions from you. I will refrain from comparisons to other products unless answering a direct question. It is not my goal to advertise. I would rather talk about what we are doing and how it might affect what we do.

Thanks to Jeff for setting up this forum and for the opportunity to participate. Is there a spell checker included ;-)

Glenn

Thank you for joining us. I have learned over the years the value of dialog with those who design and build the tools we use, and this is more important today than ever before because of the rapid pace of technological change that confronts us all every day. Speaking of technology, there is a Spell Checker feature of this forum software (but it says that it doesn't work with all servers) but I don't think it functions here. Sorry.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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Jeff,

As I said on RAMPS, there is great value in the participation of the manufacturers and dealers.  I believe that all of them are mature enough to understand the fine line between providing information, and blatant product plugs.  Plus, I trust you to edit as you see fit if someone does cross the line.  And, I think they need full access to all threads.  An example of this value came up a few months ago when someone posted a new source for batteries.  Larry Fisher immediately jumped in to let us know he had ordered some and put them through their testing and provided us with the results.  There was never a plug for his products, but valuable information provided to all of us.

Phil

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An example of this value came up a few months ago when someone posted a new source for batteries.  Larry Fisher immediately jumped in to let us know he had ordered some and put them through their testing and provided us with the results.  There was never a plug for his products, but valuable information provided to all of us.

Phil

I am putting out formal invitations to as many of the "company guys" as I can and of course participation by Larry Fisher would be a tremendous asset for us all. I don't know how to contact Larry directly so if anyone knows how to reach him, let me know. I did not want to post any more stuff on r.a.m.p.s. beyond announcing this forum (and of course my usualy participation there which I will continue) because I don't want anyone to feel I am raiding our newsgroup in any way because that is definitely not my intention.

So, Larry Fisher, if you're out there, we need you!

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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Jeff,

I hope you will welcome manufacturers to this forum.

The success of RAMPS is the result of dialogue among knowledgeable users and creative manufacturers.  The dynamic relationship between customer and company serves both well.  Hardware upgrades are expensive investments.  We are all well served when innovative hardware improves the state of the art.  Products whose upgrades are software based receive particular benefit from discussion groups.  Some complain about being perpetual beta testers, yet if we desire constant upgrades we must also realize the nature of this two way street.

It is difficult say when the line has been crossed and information becomes advertising. This judgment call is often driven by personalities. I want to know about new gear and technique.

Many unpleasant postings on RAMPS originate from one person.  As I read the Deva and Metacorder groups, I enjoy the relative quiet.

David Terry

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