Providing Wireless / Wired Communications for Camera Dept.

[Jan McL]

The DP/Director has requested private communications as between himself and his operators (four units total). The UPM called with the request and emailed me the following information:

There is the Telex System which is wireless and has single muff headsets, used for football camera operators (www.telex.com) - 4 drops $145.

And there is ClearComm System which is hardwired and has single or double muff headsets (www.clearcom.com) - about the same $. Holding Base Station MS-232, Beltpacks RS-501 and Headsets CC-95.

UPM didn't know whether one muff or two. I assured her the operators would prefer one muff. Don't think I'm wrong.

As a neophyte with this kinda of gear (will research over the weekend) wanted to be sure it should land as our gear to administer on set. Seems logical, but...

Lean toward the wireless setup without having looked at what it is.

We've already determined that a 2nd boom will be in order, so staffing isn't an issue.

Battle stories welcomed.

-- Jan

[David Lezynski]

In my opinion, you may want to hire a comm technician that has experience with these babies. The wired versions are simple enough, but in 95% of the events I have done, there is ALWAYS a buzz/hum/levelproblem. And it takes a bit of time to sort things out. The wireless duplex versions (a 4 channel system works on 8 frequencies) are complex and quirky enough with their menu driven structure that one of the stations either cant talk or cant hear.... again, a total time vampire. If you can't hire a specialist, under no circumstances, can you open the comm case on set and expect it to work as expected. In dirty RF Cities, a prep is essential at the location you expect to be in, (a 2 mile location change can make wireless comm useless) and always have a pair or more of frequency options for each station. Sorry that I'm such a downer, but I've done the TeethGrinding/FistPounding/Tears thingy. I feel strongly about this. Please do report your experiences

[BrianW]

Limited experience here, but a tv stuidio I work in uses the telex wireless indoors, and I've never seen any issues arise with them in the last 6 months that I've been mixing there. Mind you, I wasn't there when they first set it up, and this is a fixed install. The system has 3 rack-mount base stations (one at each desk) and single-muff headsets for the floor director & each camera op. Each location can be addressed individually or globally from each base station.

[Jan McL]

Suspected as much, David. Thank you for your response. You too, Brian.

Hope to have a few more chime in before I either ask for a competent operator or a day of prep or something.

-- Jan

[Philip Perkins]

As Mr. L says, I would not allow the camera dept's comm to become your problem unless you are being well compensated for it. I've found dealing with these things to be a huge distraction and time-sink. One compromise might be to do a little training time with a member of the cam dept, then hand the whole case off. They can hassle it together for their folks, and make the calls to the rental house when the thing stops working (this is inevitable).

phil p

[old school]

As Mr. L says, I would not allow the camera dept's comm to become your problem unless you are being well compensated for it. I've found dealing with these things to be a huge distraction and time-sink. One compromise might be to do a little training time with a member of the cam dept, then hand the whole case off. They can hassle it together for their folks, and make the calls to the rental house when the thing stops working (this is inevitable).

phil p

I agree that this is a camera dept issue. If staffing is not an issue, they should hire the right guy with the correct gear. Some camera crews out in LA use these systems to communicate w the cam,grip, and electro guys, but the camera department sets it up and operates it. Good luck.

CrewC

[geordi]

There are several manufacturers of these wireless theatre-grade systems, the Telex RadioComm systems are decent quality sounding units, but as you have heard, configuration is a pain.

I haven't had any problems with durability with the Telex system even when using it with students... But on one professional gig I did get a call over the radio from a tech that "the pack on my waist is smoking, what should I do?" Hoo boy... Turns out, one of the NiMH rechargables (AA replaceable type in a pack) had leaked. Unfortunately, he didn't take the pack OFF when it started to smoke, and it killed the radio.

Let the camera department sort that themselves. Worst case, your local Outdoor World type place will have the Midland brand GMRS / FRS combo radios and the surveillance earpieces. Let them have their own channel and quiet code, and use the VOX function if they don't want to push a little button to chat. Much less hassle for you. $150 would easily buy you 6 radios, then charge them for the earpieces. ($30 for 2)

[Sndspd]

As everyone has noted while also reiterating have someone specializing in that field setup the comms., it is a PITA. I have dealt with wireless and wired comms. along with dealing with my department I was hired to do; sound. Trying to do both and your mixing with suffer for it. You will be spending an in ordinary amount of time trying to setup and trouble shoot instead of mixing.

For some reason, production believes that it falls under the title of sound department to insure communications for camera department. I treat it like walkies, I try not to touch it but FAIL.

Gabe

[Olle Sjostrom]

What about walkies w earpieces? That shouldn't be your stuff to invest in whatever gear it is, it's for the camera crew, right? You'll get the extra workload and they'll be annoyed with the fact that you don't know how the gear works, cus you've never worked with it...

In Sweden the gaffers have their private walkies, we have out ifb chain between boom ops and mixers, rest of the crew are on the same channel walkie, and the occasional ifb to director chain. In Sweden it would be standard operation to just say "rent a couple of walkies to the camera crew and director for a private line"

[Peter Mega]

http://www.riedel.net/

Riedel is extremely versatile and comprehensive in comms. Probably overkill for what you want though.

As stated, comms is a world of its own and should have an experienced operator looking after it.

But really, it sounds like the cam dept should simply have their own two way radios rented in for them or have their own channel on the production two ways.

[ccsnd]

yeah,

If camera wants a way to communicate, camera should set it up. you have enough on your plate making sure sound gets recorded correctly and making your own people happy. You don't want to have to worry about another dept as well....

[John Steigerwald]

The Telex BTR-800 is a great system. The only time I've ever run into hum problems was when it had to be tied back into a larger PL system (RTS Adam or Riedel Artist Mainframe) in a truck. Standalone use is generally problem free. It's an industry standard.

It's a full duplex system, you have two transmit freqs for the base station, and four receive frequencies for the packs.

Setting the system is really no different than setting the channel on a Shure type wireless Tx (menu, enter, up, down).

In fact, the rental house should have it set on presets and ready to go when you pick it up.

Other than batteries (lithiums should get you through a day), it's pretty much set and forget.

[Jan McL]

Started reading the BTR-800 manual, head began to explode (only 3/4 cuppa into the day), so returned here for a break.

Lots to think about.

It's a one-day commercial, so we're compensated well.

The request came from an experienced DP, so I'm unlikely to suggest he use walkies, LOL, which is not to say I didn't wish I could.

Think I'm gonna consult with a DP pal who is familiar with using them for a list of "considerations" with the promise that next time we work together I'll get him the units he needs. Also with the mixer on that project. Also gonna call the rental house first thing Monday and see if I can't stop by and touch the units. Then, see if I can't get compensated for the checkout day or get another expert body on the payroll.

Hopefully somebody familiar with this gak will show up to our Weekly Weekend Gearhead G+ Hangout this afternoon (speaking of which THIS is the link to said digital pub).

Gonna brew the 2nd cup.

I'll be baaaaack.

-- Jan

[Wyatt Tuzo]

Good morning, Jan,

I agree with most that this could end up eating a ton of your time... That said, having experience with a few different PL systems, in terms of ease of use, portability, and cost, I would recommend checking out the HME units (should you decide to go forward with this).

http://www.clearcom.com/product/wireless/hme-dx210-dx210c

The transceivers ar significantly smaller than the Telex models. I've also found them to be significantly easier to integrate into my system (though I don't recall what freqs your zax IFB operate on).

I don't claim to be any sort of expert here. I just know that I have wasted hours of my time trying to trouble-shoot the telex systems, and I wouldn't chose to do it again.

I know that Keith Garcia and Oscar Cordova both own the HME's and are more familiar with the in's and outs. They are both in LA, but maybe they will chime in later.

Best,

Wyatt

[Wyatt Tuzo]

PS: If you move forward with this, make SURE not to go with the ligh-weight headset. Even with the full-muff, your boom ob is going to have to shoot an occasional look to an operator who has their headset up too loud.

[Jan McL]

Thanks, Wyatt. I've not yet looked at the Clearcom manual, but will soon.

This is for sure not a gear-purchase moment.

It doesn't have to integrate with any program material, but only for the DP to commune with the camera operators, so no integration necessary (unless I'm missing something beyond frequency coordination).

The day of shooting may change, so I may be looking for someone else to join us for the day since one of my guys is unavailable on the alternate date.

As usual, it's getting increasingly more complicated with every passing moment.

-- Jan

[Wyatt Tuzo]

It doesn't have to integrate with any program material, but only for the DP to commune with the camera operators, so no integration necessary (unless I'm missing something beyond frequency coordination).

-- Jan

Nope, I was just speaking in terms of freq coordination. The HME is a 2.4 Ghz system. As david mentioned earlier, the Telex can use up to 8 carrier frequencies. If memory serves, they are in UHF, which can be a bummer.

[John Steigerwald]

the Telex can use up to 8 carrier frequencies.

It's a 6 channel system.

A & B Tx channels from base station

1 channel Tx each from the packs.

In standalone mode, provided the freqs are set, it's really very plug and play.

[bcopenhagen]

Call a Technocrane house for ideas and opinions. In my experience, a Telex (or other) comms system is a standard piece of kit for them, and they will have war stories.

Aside from that, spider-sense is tingling at the thought of taking on the responsibility for it.

-Brian

[Jan McL]

Thanks Brian, good thought! Will check with a grip or two for a Technocrane guy with whom I might speak.

After consulting with probably 20 colleagues, the consensus seems to be that it's not really a toy that should land squarely in sound's sandbox. Frequency coordination and an offer of technical assistance if needed appear not to be out of order, and that strategy is what I plan to use (as of this morning).

Rethinking The Phone Call that started this research, it may be that the UPM merely wished to give me a heads up that comms were coming, and did I wanna veto or coordinate wireless. I think that's how the follow up call angle will be played.

In the meantime, feeling better prepared to discuss with her tomorrow.

Ohm.

-- Jan

[Matt Mayer]

Jan,

I think you are right to run screaming the opposite direction on this one.

I occasionally do some A2 work for a buddy of mine who works for a major three letter cable shopping channel. They do shows on location all over the US. We work with the BTR-800s--three units, 12(!) beltpacks. Frequency coordination is always a nightmare and total time-suck. And just when you think you've got it nailed, someone runs up at the most inopportune time with a problem beltpack. ("No, it won't work three blocks away, why do you ask?")

I think the only thing you should be concerned about is frequency coordination. Each unit has a specific frequency block--that has no relation to Lectro blocks--that it can use for its receive and transmit channels. You can see the chart here:

http://www.telex.com...?i=97083&lg=eng

If you can find out what frequencies the unit you will be getting uses, you'll have a fighting chance of making sure it doesn't kill your wireless. It's always a joy since the transmit and receive frequencies are ~100-150MHz apart.

[jacefivesound]

The job I just wrapped involved camera and G+E bringing their own HME systems (runs on 2.4, like everything else now a days, I believe it's one of their 'drive through' systems). If they needed sound for a cue we just hooked up a comtek RX to one of their TX and left it open (owner's had cables built for comteks specifically to HME I/O). I have no idea how it worked, because it wasn't our problem, and that means it worked just great.

http://www.hme.com/

[Joshua Anderson]

Anyone have a recommendation as to the practical difference between UHF band systems and 2.4GHz band ones?

Thanks,

Josh

[David Lezynski]

Anyone have a recommendation as to the practical difference between UHF band systems and 2.4GHz band ones?

Thanks,

Josh

Josh's Question suggests a new thread......... Could get a bit thick for this thread....... May I?

[studiomprd]

I have alrready commented about the freq ranges in the new thread, and now find this thread that spawned it...

I would highly recommend the ClearCom Tempest system (find a rental!). They are available in 900MHz or 2.4GHz, and on a stage the 2.4 GHz would be the choice (and the 900MHz units are likely to be scarcer in rentals, and they are relatively new). The Tempest is a Spread Spectrum system and requires no frequency coordination. The master station has the ability to lockout the menu's on the beltpacks, and I highly recommend doing that after they are set-up. Will you be a 4 person crew?? your ought to be, but once set up properly, the Tempest proved to be really straight forward, practically plug-and-play, robust, and reliable. it also has "cool". HME owns ClearCiom. Telex owns RTS and, IIRC, RadioCom. German company Reidel is a leader in the field...

Edited February 3, 2012 by studiomprd