jonathan chiles Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I was on a commercial shoot last week with an Alexa and the DIT on the job insisted that he strongly preferred record run TC on the Alexa saying it made it easier for him to check if any footage was missing after copying the cards. I let this go as there was no dialogue to record only atmos and fx and the camera ended up rolling at 100fps most of the time. Obviously producers should be consulted and post as well, but my inclination especially with the Alexa is to insist that audio and camera TC are jammed. I understand the DIT's reasoning but it seems that all other DIT's I have ever worked with dont lose footage and the camera runs TOD TC.. Anyone else come across this kind of thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Spaeth Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I've had this kind of shoot. They hire you just to have a sound guy there in case the director gets a crazy idea, while actually all the audio is done in post. I always have to remind me of the money I make for sitting around doing pretty much nothing on those jobs. So basically if all you do is FX and atmos there's no need for syncing - might be what the DIT thought. If there is sync sound I would insist on either free run TC or a slate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindrop Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 At present when the Alexa is in record run mode it continues to output TOD or free run from the 5 pin Lemo. I've been in touch wih Arri - Jan Heugel Application Engineer digitalworkflow-at-arri.de (disabled direct use of email address in case of email harvesting robots, obviously replace 'at' and also remove hyphens) to request a change to this, pointing out the 788T's (sent a copy of the manual) and Fusion's capabilities to 'auto-record' or 'auto-load' which I have had occasion to use with the Alexa but have not been able to. And also that Sony and Panasonic cameras when in record run mode output record run timecode from the timecode output. I'm hoping a change is under consideration, I think it might be? Anyone else who is interested in this could perhaps email Arri to add to the persuasion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I was on a commercial shoot last week with an Alexa and the DIT on the job insisted that he strongly preferred record run TC on the Alexa saying it made it easier for him to check if any footage was missing after copying the cards. This is stupid in a thousand different ways. The script sup and assistant editor will be able to tell immediately if the shots are shorter than what was done on the set just by checking the file names and file sizes. And if it's at 100fps, as far as I know, timecode gets reset to 00 every time, since timecode only works at normal speed. The snappy answer (one I don't recommend saying) is, "well, there won't be any footage missing if you do your job." (Just think it, don't say it.) This sounds like an insecure guy who doesn't know what he or she is doing. Coming from a post point of view, I really think Rec Run is stupid, at least on a digital shoot in 2012. But I concede, we have to go along with what the client wants, even if what they want is stupid. If I were confronted with that, I would make a case for sound timecode to be time of day, use timecode slates, and just sync up the sound visually with the clap. Rec Run is also a nightmare for multiple cameras, especially if they're on the move. How do you keep multiple cameras, starting and stopping independently, to all have the exact same timecode at the same time? Yikes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan chiles Posted February 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I agree that TC didnt really matter much on this particular shoot. This particular DIT who is not a newbie and is apparently one of the best guys in town just has a bee in his bonnet about rec run tc. I understand the autoload possibilities if the Alexa output rec run but I am not particularly interested in working this way. It is so simple and problem free to work with TOD with the Alexa and that is what I have done on all other shoots leading up til now. If I ran into this DIT again on a sync sound shoot the conversation would involve the producer and I'd be telling them they can either pay the extra kit rental for the denecke slate or camera gets jammed to my TC.. Was just wondering if somehow rec run made somebodies job easier down the line, and I trust Marc when he says it does not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Rec Run used to make the assistant editor's job easier, because there would never be a "blip" during capture or pre-roll, since all the timecode is continuous. Think of a timecode change as a big splice that bumps in the gate. If it's all continuous, no splices, it rolls smooth as glass; if there's a drastic change in code (aka "discontinuous code"), the system burps for a moment, takes a few seconds to settle down, then comes up to speed. This was a big problem in the old days of linear tape-based post. In some cases, the Avid would miss the first few seconds of the take, if the timecode was unstable, which meant the editor might not see the slate at all. I can recall much screaming and yelling over issues like this in the past. In the last decade of HD, I know of cases where producers have taken TOD material and dubbed it over to new videotapes with continuous timecode, and then considered the new tapes the "masters" for the entire project. I believe this process has mostly ended, now that everybody has embraced file-based post. Unfortunately, we still run into DPs and camera operators who try to treat cameras as if they were film, and that there's no need for pre-roll. To me, digital cameras are now exactly like digital sound recorders, in that you do need a few seconds of pre-roll just to give the editor some room to work with. I know of no digital cameras that have an "auto pre-roll record," as provided on Cantar, Fostex, Sound Devices, Zaxcom, or similar sound recorders. Basically, Rec Run is kind of old-school thinking, and I understand why some people would want to cling to it. Still, the guy forgetting to roll or copy a take is no different than a sound mixer forgetting to roll or mirror a take. Somehow, we get it done, just by paying close attention and not screwing up, even while doing 12 different things. I concede that the D.I.T.'s job is not an easy one, and they have terrible pressure on them nowadays, particularly with union concerns, nervous DPs, unpredictable cameras, massive amounts of data, and unrealistic expectations on the part of neophyte directors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 A basic answer is this: if you want rec-run TC on the camera, then you don't get a TC slate w/ camera TC, or matching TC on the audio files. I'm totally over screwing w/ TC-start "autorecord" anymore, and only do TC-transmitted-to-slate when I have to (like playback jobs). There is no reason for rec-run TC on virtually any sync sound shoot anymore, and good riddance. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindrop Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 A basic answer is this: if you want rec-run TC on the camera, then you don't get a TC slate w/ camera TC, or matching TC on the audio files. I'm totally over screwing w/ TC-start "autorecord" anymore, and only do TC-transmitted-to-slate when I have to (like playback jobs). There is no reason for rec-run TC on virtually any sync sound shoot anymore, and good riddance. phil p Nahh! Record Run is lovely you just haven't treated it right I don't mind which flavor of timecode I use except that I'm very lazy and if I can get someone else to start and stop my recorder for me so much the better, especially if I'm doing my own boom swinge-ing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Although, playing Devil's Advocate, RecRun could "theoretically" work with WiFi solutions like Timecode Buddy. If slate, cameras, and sound are all getting wireless reliable timecode, then it could work fine. But it would not be ideal, particularly if the camera stops and restarts without warning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 The whole idea or Rec Run seems crazy to me on a file-based system. I've only once been on a shoot with Rec Run. In was with F900s some years ago. We used TC slates and I guess everything turned out fine. The DIT is not our boss, and we don't work for him. But if he won't set the camera in a manner to better sync sound, then tell the producer you need to use a TC slate and sync that way. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan chiles Posted February 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 "The DIT is not our boss, and we don't work for him. But if he won't set the camera in a manner to better sync sound, then tell the producer you need to use a TC slate and sync that way." I'll drink to that!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 of course the DIT may be just doing what s/he was told... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan chiles Posted February 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 of course the DIT may be just doing what s/he was told... In this case no, it was his chosen method Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gilchrist Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 In this case no, it was his chosen method Which those of us who took the time to read your original post and your "bee in his bonnet" post would have known. of course the DIT may be just doing what s/he was told... Might be best to read what's been said previously before commenting. Best regards, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 " In this case no " of course... but in general...(this is a discussion, and folks have been commenting on how to handle this when it comes up... and one common scenario is that the DIT is doing what s/he has been told from "above"... and thus it is a potential factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 "...an African swallow, maybe... but not a European swallow -- that's my point." ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan chiles Posted March 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 I have another Alexa job coming up this week and this was just forwarded to me from the post company Whitehouse Post. It seems some post houses are requesting record run.. AND they still want the audio timecode to match the camera.. I now must be cabled to camera or work out a wireless TC system unless I can convince them to use TOD 1. Footage should be acquired at 23.98 frames per second. 2. Capture aspect ratio should be 16x9. If using other aspect ratio, please specify if image should be !t width, height or anamorphic. 3. Master footage should be recorded as ProRes444 Quicktimes. 4. Recorded Color Space should be Arri Log C. 4. Continuous ascending SMPTE timecode should be applied to the masters starting at one hour. Every frame MUST have a completely unique timecode identi!er. AUDIO 1. If possible, audio should be recorded to the camera. 2. Backups of any audio should be delivered along with the footage on DAT or Disk. 3. Shots with audio recorded should be marked in Script Notes. 4. If audio cannot be recorded to camera a smart slate MUST be used. 5. Recorded Audio timecode should match the timecode being recorded to the cameras QTs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 I have another Alexa job coming up this week and this was just forwarded to me from the post company Whitehouse Post. It seems some post houses are requesting record run.. AND they still want the audio timecode to match the camera.. I now must be cabled to camera or work out a wireless TC system unless I can convince them to use TOD Convince them to use TOD, so much more reliable and easy to implement, nothing whatsoever lost in the post process. The fact that they are requesting that your "backup sound" be delivered on DAT or Disk indicates to me that their specification and procedures are way behind the times. "Every frame MUST have a completely unique timecode identifier" --- well, isn't that the reason for using timecode in the first place? Time-of-Day TC can obviously accomplish this and provides a higher degree of flexibility for everyone during production. The Alexa is a very good modern camera --- their sound specification is out of touch with current practices which are already well tried and true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindrop Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 I have another Alexa job coming up this week and this was just forwarded to me from the post company Whitehouse Post. It seems some post houses are requesting record run.. Last time I used an Alexa a month ago it was not possible to work a separate recorder with record run slaved to the camera because despite the camera being set to record run the output from the timecode out on the 5 pin Lemo remains TOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al mcguire Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 if it is one camera for 1 day I would take the timecode feed into the Sound Devices EXT TC-Auto Record mode Wasn't there a recent thread asking if the current Alexa software outputs Timecode ? al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan chiles Posted March 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2012 Aah thanks for reminding me of the possibility that Alexa puts out TOD and not Rec Run.. I am going to push for TOD all round and that bit of info might help my case if it is still true for the latest firmware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cinetj Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 if it is one camera for 1 day I would take the timecode feed into the Sound Devices EXT TC-Auto Record mode Wasn't there a recent thread asking if the current Alexa software outputs Timecode ? al I don't have any experience with rec-run or auto-load recording but in this case pointed by Al couldn't this be the best method, specially in a documentary style of shooting? This would mean that the audiofiles from the recorder would match exactly the image files generated by the camera; the risk of timecode drift that exists in Free Run TOD mode would also disappear... I guess since the audio recorder would only work with the incoming TC from the camera (assuming the camera is the master and recorder slave) I might be terribly wrong. Please tell me if I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan chiles Posted September 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Drift can be an issue but never has been for me. The Alex has Ambient TC circuitry built in and lately even with frame rate changes and power cycles I find that the TOD TC still matches up to my 788. It does require keeping an eye on the camera.. its quite easy with the ALexas display though. Anything else gets the SBT slapped on it and production gets billed accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Jim is right. If the client demands Rec Run, you gotta do it. I still wish this problem would just go away. It has no meaning in an all-digital file world. These people are clinging to 1999 thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 I did years and years of work exactly this way, except there was no TC slate involved (because to do so would have been ever more messy). The autorecord thing work ok for shoots where there was mostly just recording, but if the DIT or field tech went into playback without warning I would suddenly have new files with the same TC as those being played back. It was a stupid systems folks, and the wireless TC link from the camera could be dicey. All ok I guess for stage work, suckass for location work esp dramatic or commercial as one-man-band. Hopefully all the tape HD cams (most especially Panasonics) will die soon and this workflow will be buried with them. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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