Evaluating Neumann KM185 vs Schoeps CMC6/MK41

[pvanstry]

I have started an evaluation of my Neumann KM185 hyper vs a Schoeps CMC6/MK41. Looking at a Hypercardiod for dialog indoors.

SO far.

1- The Schoeps is way more sensitive to finger movement on the boom.

2- THey both are EXTREMELY close in real condition test ( in a kitchen with people talking ).

3- Schoeps is a tiny more bright but nothing that Post can't do with EQ.

4- Schoeps seems a bit more sensitive ( or Higher output ) than the Neumann, but just a tiny bit.

5- Schoeps feels a bit noisier, probably because it is slighlty brighter.

Anyone wants to chime in and add there real life comment on the microphones?

Thank you

Pascal

[Ray Collins]

Reach comparison? Possibly try getting someone 6 feet away and A B the mics? Slightly off axis how do the compare? With the boom fingering noise; What are you using for suspension? With that the Schoeps works much better with a low cut installed.

[Audio Daddyo]

No need for a low cut with a Rycote Invision 7 Shock Mount.

Andy

[pvanstry]

Using a rycote inv 7 but the noise is not low end but high freq rattling. Will check for that.

6 feet away? I have to admit I did not try that. I did a foot away both mics. Off and on axis and also with lots of noise ( television set on ) and see the difference.

So far Neumann is really working out since price difference is huge and I hear no difference that warrants to cost.

But keep the comments and info coming.

[studiomprd]

The KM-185 is, IIRC, the lower cost version of the KM-150 -- I was told on excellent authority that the capsule and electronics are the same; though it is a screw off capsule, it is not part of the KM-100 system.

much beyond that, comparisons will, of course, be pretty subjective. I was using KM-150's on an episodic back in the 90's, and no one (not even post) ever suggested it would sound any better, or even any different, using Schoeps !!

[r.paterson]

Hello Pascal

i have owned both, in a minority i know but i sold the schoeps , i have mkh50's and also still have the km185 with the new circuit board which is rf bullet proof, the new km-185's have this rf resistant board, i remember testing against the km150 and the new board on km185 sounded a lot quiter, the km185 is brighter than the mkh50, i totaly Love my km185 think it is a fantastic mic even at a distance, in a way its maybe a bit harsher than the mkh50, i need a bass cut of about 80hz on the km185 on a boom for handeling noise, also did a mountain programme where i needed a small boom mic used the km185 in a baby ball with windjammer and it worked wonderfully, i use it with a r/a xlr and it is very low profile..

Richard

[Winter]

i have mkh50's and also still have the km185

@ Richard and Pascal

What do you guys feel about the mids? Are those mics comparable? As long as I remember from first hand tests,they're were different but all were very nice, but you know, memory is'nt that reliable...

[Stuart]

I use a KM150 as my indoor mic in a Rycote Invision mount. It's a great sounding mic on and off axes ie. people off axes just sound quieter not any different frequency wise. This makes for very natural unscripted doco/reality booming where you have to use the force a little.

It is a little weak on the lower end as can been seen from the frequency plot. I think this may be be because Neumann intend it for use as a spot mic in orchestral recording for example. For me it does cut a little too much into male voices but it in a way that suits our uses I suppose. The plus side to the bass roll off is no handling noise. With a 80Hz cut at the mixer and the Invision mount I struggle to produce any handling noise at all.

I also have a KM140 which is cardioid and has a fully extended bass response making it my favourite interview mic in the right environment. Also a KM120 for use in an MS pair. Lovely mics.

Stuart

[rafaeldelauz]

I'm a km185 lover, specially since the new version is incredible resistant to RF, but sometimes I wish they have a little more output, specially using it with sound devices mixer.

Now Neumann have the 185/184/183 series in a modular version. it's a pretty nice set.

[Mark Vesterskov]

I've never stumbled across the KM185 before, but from the looks of it (and your raving reviews), it might be worth considering for us that cannot afford an MKH-50 or Schoeps CMC641. I cannot find any real life audio samples. Do any of you know of a place where i can find some clips recorded with the mic?

[pvanstry]

I'm doing more test and found why i was feeling the Schoeps was brighter. I had the B5 windscreen with the Schoeps and a generic heavier ( Windtech ) foam filter for the Neumann. In this configuration, they were almost exactly the same but i could move the Neumann faster ( panning the boom from a person to another ) then with the Schoeps. At this point they are so close yet so far ( price wise ).

I like the Neumann better.

I also did a 6 feet test, same result.

SHould i test a CMIT instead???

Pascal

[David Waelder]

I've owned the KM185 and a KM140 for quite a few years. As Mike says, the 140/150 series has interchangeable capsules and can be used with a Colette-type cable like the Schoeps. And the 180 series is electrically and audibly identical to the 140 series; it sacrifices only the versatility of interchangeable capsules to achieve a lower price.

I purchased my 140 new and my 185 from Bruce Bisenz (through Coffey Sound) when he retired. I can't say with certainty, but I believe Bruce used the 185 (and other Neumann mikes of that series) on "Tequilla Sunrise." I know that Tom Brandau has been using these mikes for a long time and they were his primary instruments on "Confidence." That's a film not enough people saw but it's a studio picture with an extraordinary cast. Tom also uses his Neumann mikes on CSI. (although that's a radio heavy show) My point is that the microphone quality is easily up to the challenge of top level professional work and the pick-up pattern is suitable for film production.

Having said all this, I also have to say that I have all but retired these mikes in favor of Sennheisers. While they worked brilliantly with a duplex cable, I had difficulty getting optimum performance in a radio boom configuration. Using the mikes with Lectro transmitters and a Denecke phantom power supply there seemed to be too much self-noise. They would work OK with actors who spoke out but would be noisy if I needed to push the gain. I sent the 185 back to the Neumann facility in Connecticut and had the circuit board upgraded to the latest design but the problem never went completely away. Eventually, it just became necessary to replace the mikes.

But, I still have them in my kit, just not in primary position. I suspect that using the mikes with a full preamp, like the SD MM-1, would solve the noise problem but I never made the test to confirm that.

David

[studiomprd]

" a place where i can find some clips recorded with the mic? "

"Seaquest DSV" (KM-150's)

[Alan H. Chang]

I also did a 6 feet test, same result.

SHould i test a CMIT instead???

Try a 6-footer off-axis rather than on-axis.

[pvanstry]

Alan, i did that test on and off axis. Not a difference in my book. But i am curious why would it be relevant in actual practical usage? I can see it as important if it is an all boom shoot but nowadays it is always mixed wireless and boom.

Honestly, i see no difference that warants the price difference. There is a difference, indeed the Schoeps is very slightly more articulate ( defined i guess is the word ) the the Neumann, but really nothing that would even stand out in an blind A and B test. But on the negative side, it cost more, and is way more sensitive to handling noise and as the shadow of humidity issues.

Again wondering if i should turn toward the CMIT for a test.

Pascal

[benr]

Wow the KM185D is a digital mic and the same price as the new MKH 50 I am getting ready to buy. That's interesting to think about. I'll be watching this thread to hear what you all think of this mic.

[r.paterson]

mmm yes i am looking at maybe getting a KM185D as well, waiting to hear if anyone had tried the KM185D for dialogue etc..i suspect very little users at moment....might see if i can get one to try out...

richard

[chrisnewton]

Hi Pascal. I have an MK41 and a KM150. I've started to use the KM150 again recently (it was the first hypercard I bought). I find it much more directional than the MK41 in close. eg: on a recent production, i was picking up (off-axis) HMI whine with the MK41 on a fixed boom stand, I swapped it for the KM150, identical positioning, and it didn't pick up the whine at all. I personally don't find the KM 150 has as much "reach" as the MK41, and is less forgiving when swinging the boom. The KM150 is definitely less susceptible to boom handling noise (same Invision 7 mount). I love its small size of course. I do find the highs a bit much on a sibillant voice, but it certainly cuts through on a mix. because the KM150 is relatively ancient (I bought it well used) it's more sensitive to RFI. It's pretty much unusable with my older Zaxcom Goldline buttplug system, and i have had problems using it near some of the shittier video transmitters. All in all though, it's a great mic, but I still pull out the Schoeps first.

Chris Newton

[studiomprd]

" Again wondering if i should turn toward the CMIT for a test. "

Oh, go ahead.... it will be OK...

[Noah Timan]

If I may chime in with my two cents:

I remember (one of many) similar debates some years back between the Sennheiser MKH-416 and the Sanken CS-3e, which led Glen Trew to conclude, "Which microphone should you buy? The black one." It was very wise.

I'm afraid that for what we do (which is record different voices in different acoustic environments with a never-ending series of variables, with the microphones operated by operators who also have an extreme variance in their techniques and preferences) there is no simple way to do a one-off "test" to compare two microphones and have the conclusion be anything more than a line drawn in the sand.

If we were talking about which mic sounded the best on a kick drum in the studio at 2 ft away, even then there would be (is) subjectivity. It would still be "it depends...". But there at least one could probably boil it down to a majority vs. minority opinion, since one would be talking about similar operating circumstances.

When surveying this community -- which spans film, episodic, documentary, ENG, EPK, reality TV, and lord knows what else -- to come up with the "Best Mic" or "Best Bargain" it's just asking for trouble, in my opinion. There are very few similar operating circumstances even in one of our areas of craft, let alone all of them.

The fact of the matter is that within our workflow, the devils of location acoustics, location noise issues, and talent voice level and character are going to constantly vary. The microphone that sounds best in this room on this voice may not be the best choice in that other room on that other voice. Where, whom, and how we are recording are going to endlessly affect notions of "reach", "brightness", and so forth. What about outside? And then? Are you in the country? The city? A quiet street or a noisy street? It just goes on and on.

So, in my opinion, just doing an A/B on one voice in one room between two mics (in this case, the KMR-185 and the Schoeps MK41) isn't going to yield much unless you are just deciding which mic is better on THAT voice in THAT room. The Schoeps and the Neumann hypercardioids are both wonderful-sounding microphones. They haven't both stood the test of time this long because nobody simply realized one mic was better than the other in almost all circumstances. The same goes for the short shotguns, and on and on. In my opinion, no matter how many times it is debated over the years, the sad (to our wallets) reality is that there is no "best mic". There is only a "best mic" for a very specific application. And our jobs often lead us to survey hundreds of *different* specific applications, even on a single show.

If you're strapped by budget, my personal advice is to buy a 416 (still, in my opinion, the most versatile of all film mics over the breadth of situations we encounter, even though it is not the "best" mic in every situation) and add to your quiver as you are financially able or inclined.

Otherwise, I'd just advise to keep listening and keep tabs on what works best when and where and with whom. When you're really happy with the track -- not just that you got the track, but that how it sounds makes you really happy -- then you know you've chosen the best mic for the job, or at least a very, very good one. In my opinion.

.02 nvt

[VM]

I own a Schoeps MK41 .In my opinion it sounds better than the KM150 (the Neumann cuts low frequencies),

BUT

sometimes I rent a KM150, when acoustics is more difficult, when the ambient is too noisy, in proximity or .... when the ceiling is not enough high !

I would like to have them both.

[pvanstry]

For me, since my budget is limited ( i am purchasing a lot of gear lately and still have some more to buy ), the test told me that i was not missing out on a huge difference that would make or break a dialog recording. This entire thing is born out of a producer asking for a Schoeps mic for his feature. But i was really not sure it was going to make a difference. I recorded the dialog of my daughter with both mics and sent the dialog to the producer with no mention of the mic it was using. The producer was cool enough to play the game and was really surprised to hear no difference. I was also really pleased that i would be able to redirect to money saved to other things that would be useful for his production. Im not saying that i will never get a Schoeps but that at this point the difference is not big enough to warrant the purchase. I will also add that i will stand by this assesment even in any other situation where one would use a Schoeps. Meaning that i believe that the difference would not be enough in my mind ( but more important in my ears ). We always forget that in the end, it really is going to be twisted, mangled, compressed and mixed with 200 other sources.

Thanks

[studiomprd]

Thanks, Noah,

you said it very well and I'd only change one small thing...

" to come up with the "Best Mic" or "Best Bargain" "

I would say: to come up with the "Best Mic" or "Best value"

The bottom line to all of these frequent discussions of just about the same thing is that, as long as you stick with the "usual suspects" you have a lot of great choices to make, keeping in mind the rule: Generally speaking, you get what you pay for.

now is a good time to re-explain that disclaimer: "Generally speaking", as there are occassions when we stumble upon a genuine DEAL, as has often been related here. What do I mean? An estate sale, a pawn shop, or something on eBay that one ends up with way way below what it ought to fetch. For an example: I remember trading a used, (but $100 new) SM-58 for a pair of excellent AKG condensers because "they don't work". They worked fine with P48 applied, and I got more than my money's worth on that one, but both of us were quite happy with the deal.

...and once again (I feel like I'm talking to a new term's classes) no one is going to ask you what mic was used before voting for the sound awards; if it really sounds good, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what equipment that fellow Jack replaced (NOMAD ? 552 ? FP-33 + H4N ?) was using, because he was (obviously) not using it well.

" a producer asking for a Schoeps mic for his feature "

DANGER...DANGER Wil Robinson...

" was cool enough to play the game and was really surprised "

Warning...more danger: folks do not always like being proven wrong! (that is being proven to not know what they are talking about ??) so warning: sometimes this backfires!

Edited February 26, 2012 by studiomprd

[VM]

You are lucky not to send him this test !...

Are you Schoeps or Neumann ?

Both are good mics. That's your choice.

[pvanstry]

Well to everyone, just wanted to say a huge thank you. BTW i hope i did not sound like i was arguing for no reason.

Noah, indeed you are dead on. There is a mic for every situation. Like everyone, i am just trying to consolidate the selection since i would like to stay a maried man....

Senator, well you were also very informative and nice...

VM, that comparison was so much better than my recording. This is where you can clearly here the difference. The schoeps does sound really different, much more fuller and much more low end that makes it feel more intimate and close. SInce it does not have as much high frequencies, it feels more isolated and intimate which is what i would arguee people like of this mic. It is something that is possible to EQ but it is nice to hear when booming.

Tough one to decide...

Pascal