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How to get FCP to show BWAV metadata track names?

Final Cut Pro FCP metadata BWAV wave agent ixml

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21 replies to this topic

#1
Mark O'Russa

Mark O'Russa
  • LocationSpokane, WA
Final Cut Pro 7.x shows Scene, Take, Timecode Start and other metadata information from BWAV files, but not the track names. Is there a way to get it to do this? I've had editors ask me about this and I can't see track name information anywhere in the software.

Mark

ADRList.com - ADR list creation and management for professionals in the film and television post production industry.
FCC Call Sign: WQPV695


#2
sdog

sdog
  • LocationDenver
I realize this answer is a bit of a cheat, but I'm going to toss it out anyway because I don't know how to view track names in FCP 7 (and just in case there isn't a way)...

Point your editors to:
Sound Devices Wave Agent Beta
and to BWF Metaedit

Both freeware. Both give you a very good view of what's in the BWF headers.

You probably already knew all that. Oh well.

#3
Mark O'Russa

Mark O'Russa
  • LocationSpokane, WA
Yeah, Wave Agent is great, but It doesn't allow the track names to be placed in the file name when splitting polyphonic BWAVs. That would have solved some problems.

Mark

ADRList.com - ADR list creation and management for professionals in the film and television post production industry.
FCC Call Sign: WQPV695


#4
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA
Neither Wave Agent nor Courtney Goodin's excellent BWF-Widget Pro allow you to add track names when renaming file names from metadata. I've never, ever had a sound editor or picture editor ask for this, but I guess it's possible. Pro Tools can read track names, but the files aren't renamed per se.

To me, I'd just hand the editor a sound report and say "here's what iso track each actor is on," and hope that they use them accordingly. I can't see a workaround beyond the sound report or having them cut sound separately with Pro Tools.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#5
sdog

sdog
  • LocationDenver
You know what I would love to see added to Wave Agent? Slightly beefed up file renaming capabilities based on meta data elements other than just scene/take (maybe track info after a poly split or other elements?). I suppose maybe I'm trying to generate stuff for editors that they don't really need, but I run into so many green editors in the indie world that aren't comfortable with syncing double system sound to their edit. Since I'm often the one on an indie shoot doing both production sound and post-production sound, I really want to find ways to give the editor anything they need to make their life easier so that they'll cheerfully place the sound and make my life easier.

Sometimes it might be just a goofy little thing like appending the scene/take to beginning of the file name rather than completely replacing the existing filename, which might often have other useful information in it, like date and sequence number.

Because editors like FCP don't seem to handle BWF as robustly as they could, I feel like if I could expose as much useful information as possible in the file name it would somehow make a picture editor's life easier. I'm definitely not a picture editor, so maybe I'm just second guessing problems that don't exist, but I see so much more potential for automation through BWF data, that is not being used. Until NLEs really start to take advantage of what's there, it seems like the production sound engineer's job to find the most flexible, productive ways to transfer meta information to the picture editor. Reports are cool, but being separate from the sound files themselves, I feel like they're not quite as cool as information attached to the file itself, either in BWF meta data, file names, directory schemes, sorting schemes or what not.

Mark. I feel like I'm hijacking your thread with my philosophical ramblings. I'll shut up now. ::)

#6
Wandering Ear

Wandering Ear
  • LocationSeattle
FCP has poor implimentation of BWAV metadata, and from what I understand you cannot read track names in FCP. This is another one of those oddities like FCP ignoring the framerate metadata and calculating the TC value from the SSM (Samples Since Midnight) incorrectly using the first opened projects frame rate rather than the frame rate embedded in the BWAV metadata. From what I've remember reading it's actually the way that Quicktime deals with metadata, and not just a FCP problem, but an issue inhereted from Quicktime.
Call sign: WQSC710
http://wanderingear.net

#7
Mark O'Russa

Mark O'Russa
  • LocationSpokane, WA

Mark. I feel like I'm hijacking your thread with my philosophical ramblings. I'll shut up now. ::)

Not at all. Actually, your post inspired me to contact Sound Devices with a feature request for Wave Agent of putting metadata information in the file name when splitting polyphonic BWAV files. I also sent a similar feature request to Public Space regarding their "A Better Finder Rename" software. Excellent software, BTW.

FCP has poor implimentation of BWAV metadata, and from what I understand you cannot read track names in FCP. This is another one of those oddities like FCP ignoring the framerate metadata and calculating the TC value from the SSM (Samples Since Midnight) incorrectly using the first opened projects frame rate rather than the frame rate embedded in the BWAV metadata. From what I've remember reading it's actually the way that Quicktime deals with metadata, and not just a FCP problem, but an issue inhereted from Quicktime.

Does FCP X handle metadata any better? I'm guessing not, but I don't know anyone that uses it so I can't check.

Mark

ADRList.com - ADR list creation and management for professionals in the film and television post production industry.
FCC Call Sign: WQPV695


#8
Wandering Ear

Wandering Ear
  • LocationSeattle

Does FCP X handle metadata any better? I'm guessing not, but I don't know anyone that uses it so I can't check.


Everyone I know is avoiding FCP X like the plague, so I have no idea. The reason I know about FCP metadata is because I've had to walk several editors through syncing with timecode and BWAV by educating them about how FCP calculates it's BWAV TC value. It took me a lot of digging and testing when I first figured this issue out, fortunately now Sound Devices has a very concise article about it that I can point editors to if they have any questions.

http://www.sounddevi...o-fcp-and-avid/

K
Call sign: WQSC710
http://wanderingear.net

#9
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA

Everyone I know is avoiding FCP X like the plague, so I have no idea. The reason I know about FCP metadata is because I've had to walk several editors through syncing with timecode and BWAV by educating them about how FCP calculates it's BWAV TC value. It took me a lot of digging and testing when I first figured this issue out, fortunately now Sound Devices has a very concise article about it that I can point editors to if they have any questions.

Very useful article! I have seen similar discussions on the LA Final Cut Pro User Group and also various Avid groups, but none as concise and to the point as this one.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#10
Jason A

Jason A
  • LocationSeattle, WA

FCP has poor implimentation of BWAV metadata, and from what I understand you cannot read track names in FCP. This is another one of those oddities like FCP ignoring the framerate metadata and calculating the TC value from the SSM (Samples Since Midnight) incorrectly using the first opened projects frame rate rather than the frame rate embedded in the BWAV metadata. From what I've remember reading it's actually the way that Quicktime deals with metadata, and not just a FCP problem, but an issue inhereted from Quicktime.


Not to mention that Pro Tools excellent Field Recorder features are basically useless once the files go into FCP.

#11
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA
The Pro Tools features work fine for final deliverables, which occur outside Final Cut Pro (broadcast tape, DCP files, DPX files, film outputs, TV deliverables, home video deliverables, archival elements, and so on).
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#12
Zack

Zack
  • LocationCalifornia
Best answer i've given to editors is to look at my sound reports. The tracks line up in FCP top to bottom = left to right on my sound reports, aka top = left = 1. It would be priceless however to see all editors (ProTools, FCP, Avid?) include this track naming data from our recorders to the timeline tracks in post.
http://www.soundgeekproductions.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3689015/

#13
Jason A

Jason A
  • LocationSeattle, WA
The field recorder workflow that I'm referring to is based on referencing metadata retained through the OMF/AAF export process. Since FCP is not able to pass on the synced files with meta data (as far as I know) this feature is not usable. Even if you have the original production files, without the OMF/AAF files having the proper meta data to refer to will make the feature unusable.

The Pro Tools features work fine for final deliverables, which occur outside Final Cut Pro (broadcast tape, DCP files, DPX files, film outputs, TV deliverables, home video deliverables, archival elements, and so on).



#14
Mark O'Russa

Mark O'Russa
  • LocationSpokane, WA

It would be priceless however to see all editors (ProTools, FCP, Avid?) include this track naming data from our recorders to the timeline tracks in post.

Pro Tools shows metadata track names in the regions list just fine. It's FCP that has issues. I'm not sure about AVID video editing software.

BTW, the good people at Sound Devices got back to me. They said they would pass on the feature request I made to their software developers. I'm sure if a few more of us made this request they would make the addition.

Mark

ADRList.com - ADR list creation and management for professionals in the film and television post production industry.
FCC Call Sign: WQPV695


#15
Zack

Zack
  • LocationCalifornia

Pro Tools shows metadata track names in the regions list just fine. It's FCP that has issues. I'm not sure about AVID video editing software.

BTW, the good people at Sound Devices got back to me. They said they would pass on the feature request I made to their software developers. I'm sure if a few more of us made this request they would make the addition.

Mark


Ya, in the regions list.
http://www.soundgeekproductions.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3689015/

#16
Mark O'Russa

Mark O'Russa
  • LocationSpokane, WA
You can also make Pro Tools show track names, original timecode, current timecode, and more in the audio region on the timeline. It just makes FCP look sad.

Mark

ADRList.com - ADR list creation and management for professionals in the film and television post production industry.
FCC Call Sign: WQPV695


#17
J Fernando Valls

J Fernando Valls
  • LocationBrooklyn, NY

Pro Tools shows metadata track names in the regions list just fine. It's FCP that has issues. I'm not sure about AVID video editing software.

BTW, the good people at Sound Devices got back to me. They said they would pass on the feature request I made to their software developers. I'm sure if a few more of us made this request they would make the addition.

Mark

There seems to be a few threads about this topic that end in unresolved questions. Either I haven't dug deep enough or this topic deserves a bump.

 

I'm trying to work with an editor using Premiere Pro CS6. My polywave 664 channel names have been imported into Premiere, where each region is auto relabeled A1, A2, A3 etc in the Premiere timeline. So I split the polywave via WaveAgent Beta into multiple mono files, and then reimported those mono files into WaveAgent for relabeling. That process would be way too tedious to implement for even a short film. And even if it weren't too tedious, WaveAgent was unable to rename the newly split mono files (bug?).

 

Like Mark, I submitted a request to Sound Devices to implement more robust metadata labeling as a metadata intermediary. I put the hard work into labeling my talent in the field, I'd like to have that info populated in my Pro Tools session when I receive an OMF back from the editor. Short of Sound Devices coming to the rescue, how might I preserve my metadata through the edit if the editor isn't using Media Composer?



#18
Wandering Ear

Wandering Ear
  • LocationSeattle
Lobbying SD for featutes is great, but the real problem is fcp and premier ignoring the metadata of bwav files. Lobbying those companies to update their bwav implementation would address the problem directly.
Call sign: WQSC710
http://wanderingear.net

#19
Andy P

Andy P

Lobbying SD for featutes is great, but the real problem is fcp and premier ignoring the metadata of bwav files. Lobbying those companies to update their bwav implementation would address the problem directly.

 

+1

SD and Zaxcom are doing their bit. No point in asking them to do any more in this field, it's the editing software not recognising whatever chunk it is of the bwavs that holds the track name data. If you're in close communication with your editor, they can read your sound reports and then ask them to make notes themselves about what order their tracks are in for the OMF.



#20
J Fernando Valls

J Fernando Valls
  • LocationBrooklyn, NY

I agree that Apple and Adobe have a larger responsibility to read the audio metadata. Sound Devices is more likely to create a work around especially since they've already created WaveAgent who's purpose is to "prepare audio files for problem-free passage through complex production workflows".

 

WaveAgent should be able to provide file renaming in the splitting matrix window of poly wave channels, (charge for this feature if you must). If other's agree, please also send along your request for this feature to SD. Or if you'd also like to take the fight to Apple/Adobe, go for it!



#21
studiomprd

studiomprd
  • LocationHollywood CA

WE: " Lobbying SD for featutes is great "

and remember Wave Agent is free to use, not sold.


SENATOR Mike Michaels, c.a.s.
Studio M Productions

#22
Philip Perkins

Philip Perkins

I would not bother wishing that Apple will do anything about this issue at all re FCPX--I don't think the market they care about even understands the problem.  Adobe, on the other hand, really should step up on this, since the NLE most people dumping FCP7 go to is Premiere.

 

philp







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Final Cut Pro, FCP, metadata, BWAV, wave agent, ixml

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