FireFace 800 vs. Traveller

[Guest silverking]

I'm currently investigating both of these interfaces for use with Metacorder. Although there are definite advantages to the RME unit that show up on it's spec sheet, it's more than twice the price of the MOTU.

I'm wondering if anybody has any experiences with either of these two devices which might help me make a choice?

My questions would be:

Does the MOTU have any real advantages over the RME, like having a User Interface on the actual unit?

Does the RME have substantially better sound due to improved mic pres and other design elements lacking in the MOTU?

I'm using this with a MacBook running Metacorder, with a Cooper mixer and a SD 702T for backup and time code.

The fact that the RME has AC only isn't really a concern for me, as I'd use this rig only where AC drops are a sure thing.....other than that I'm always in a bag just running 2 channels into the 702T.

[RPSharman]

After hours of research, and overlooking the features and the reputation of RME vs. MOTU and their AD/DA/Firewire conversions, I concluded that the Fireface 800 was superior.  That's what I bought.  I believe the additional controls and inputs and the reported additional quality is well worth the extra cost.  That said, there are lots of people using the MOTU interfaces and having great success.  So there you have it.

Robert Sharman

[Guest silverking]

Thanks for that info Robert. I'm pretty much at that same decision.

I actually have a Traveller to play around with for a while. What I don't have is the RME to directly compare it to.

The Traveller certainly does everything it says it does, and does it well. What the RME appears to have is superior mic pre-amps and input section in general, more input options, and RME's reputation for superior build quality and components.

I'm left to figure out why so many more folks have purchased the MOTU for an interface than have purchased the RME.

I really want to make sure that I'm not overlooking something obvious when comparing the two boxes!

I also now realize that twice the price isn't twice the box, but more a hefty premium for overall higher build quality, and the reputation RME have in general for excellence.

It's a tough decision.

[Jeff Wexler]

I'm left to figure out why so many more folks have purchased the MOTU for an interface than have purchased the RME.

I think the Traveler presented itself, rightfully, as a cost effective product with reasonable build quality that would do what people needed it to do. Also, being bus powered and with the option to power it with 12 vdc on a standard 4-pin XLR connector was a real plus for location sound recording purposes. I think your assessment of the merits of each box is quite clear --- it is true that twice the price is NOT twice the device but there are some intangibles (like build quality, reliability, etc.) that can reveal themselves later on. I do know that several people who own the Traveler (and some other MOTU products) have often had to own more than one as the first one quits on them. I have not heard of this with RME (although there are not as many in use in our world --- everyone has been using the Traveler, or two). It is clear, even from the specification and feature set, that the RME is superior in the handling of external word clock and other issues relating to timing., and anecdotally (that's probably not a real word) the RME's mic preamps are reported to be better.

Good luck.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[Philip Perkins]

I think the Traveler presented itself, rightfully, as a cost effective product with reasonable build quality that would do what people needed it to do. Also, being bus powered and with the option to power it with 12 vdc on a standard 4-pin XLR connector was a real plus for location sound recording purposes. I think your assessment of the merits of each box is quite clear --- it is true that twice the price is NOT twice the device but there are some intangibles (like build quality, reliability, etc.) that can reveal themselves later on. I do know that several people who own the Traveler (and some other MOTU products) have often had to own more than one as the first one quits on them. I have not heard of this with RME (although there are not as many in use in our world --- everyone has been using the Traveler, or two). It is clear, even from the specification and feature set, that the RME is superior in the handling of external word clock and other issues relating to timing., and anecdotally (that's probably not a real word) the RME's mic preamps are reported to be better.

Good luck.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

I've had no trouble w/ the Traveler and 8Pre at all that wasn't induced by me.  The CueMix software (and MOTU audio setup) make it very easy to use and even make a monitor/scratch mix on.  (This software comes free w/ the Traveler etc, and it knows which box it is looking at).  The Traveler particularly is very versitile in how you can power it, clock it, get in and get out of it.  It's actually a great deal at its price.  Many of us use them on location all the time, and I have several friends who tour with them via airline baggage.  They do have more than one, but they have them because they use more than one at once.  If you can get ahold of the RME while you have the MOTU, I'd be interested in a blind comparison of the audio sections, esp. preamps.  Everyone seems to assume that those in the RME are better, but I've never heard of a real head to head done with the two of them.

Philip Perkins

[Guest silverking]

Here's some facts I've located comparing the two.

Both the RME and the MOTU use the same convertors, the Asahi Kasei's.

The use of NJM4580 and NJM2115 opamps is one of the biggest liabilities to sound quality in the Traveller, these opamps are not reknowned for their high audio quality.

The Texas Instruments TLC2933 clock in the Traveller is weak, with high jitter in the region of 120 nanoseconds.

The RME 'SteadyClock' technology is considered one of the best available and boasts jitter only a fraction of the MOTU.

The RME has more channels and the higher speed FireWire 800 bus. However, the 800 FW bus isn't going to do much for you though unless you're using more than one interface box. You could say that other than offering up access to the 800 port on your computer it offers nothing if you're only using one box.

The RME makes use of FireWire technology developed completely in house (considered some of the best in the world), giving them full control over bug fixes and updates. They are the only ones to have full control over their software and hardware in this area.

The MOTU uses the Philips AV LLC firewire technology.

RME offers a hardware based datapacket and drop correction technology. I can't locate any information on what the MOTU offers in this area.

The RME offers Class 'A' mic preamps (likely a big reason it's not bus or battery powered) these pre-amps are based on the RME mic pres that are sold as stand-alone products.

Of course, as mentioned above all of this RME stuff comes at just short of double the price of the MOTU.

I'm almost at the point of purchasing the RME, but will continue to have access to the Traveller to A/B it with (The Traveller's at work, they bought it).

[Darren]

Here's some facts I've located comparing the two.

The RME makes use of FireWire technology developed completely in house (considered some of the best in the world), giving them full control over bug fixes and updates. They are the only ones to have full control over their software and hardware in this area.

The MOTU uses the Philips AV LLC firewire technology.

First of all, let me say that I own both MOTU and RME products.  There is absolutely no doubt that RME produces very high quality products.

But, the above sounds like a lot of marketing hype that probably came directly from RME themselves.  Their f/w implementation is considered to be the best in the world?  According to who?

The FF800 and the Traveler are two very different products.  One is a lot more expensive than the other.  And one is working under the constraints of being 12v and bus powered.  I don't think that you could possibly go wrong with the FF800, or any RME product.  But, if you need to be 12v or bus powered then the FF800 is not an option.  In this case, the Traveler should probably be compared to products that are also designed to be bus powered.

Also, the entire f/w argument is a total non-issue as I have not had any f/w issues with the Traveler at all.  Clocking is always a concern, and I believe it is widely known that RME excels in this area while the Traveler is merely adequate.

Many users, however, do not use the A/D's or the pre-amps in their interface anyway.  So for them, the Traveler is both cost effective and an effective solution.  It really all comes down to what you require from your interface.  I think comparisons can be valuable, but I believe that in this particular case, it may be an "apples and oranges" situation.

I think the choice between these two products is very cut and dry.  If you need 12v or bus power or money is an issue, purchase a Traveler or another similarly designed product (although I am not sure if there is another one in that price range that allows for locking to incoming t/c).  If you don't mind powering via A/C or the extra cost, go for the RME.  But don't forget to also factor in the extra expense of the optional LTC module so that you an lock to your t/c in order to achieve sample accurate t/c.

[Darren]

Just wanted to mention that the MH 2882 is a similar product to the Traveler, so you may want to have a look at that as well.  MH products have an interesting design that allows for their pre-amps to run in an optimized state when you use the ac adapter instead of bus or 12v power.

MH's software mixing solutions and drivers are far more complete and flexible than MOTU's.  However, MH does not currently provide the option of locking to incoming t/c.  I have been informed that this will likely be offered in the not too distant future.

[Guest silverking]

The bus powered vs. AC argument, as well as the price point observation was mentioned in my first post.

I'm simply trying to look a bit deeper than each parties web site provides.

My statement on RME's Firewire implimentation is based on their own, and third party websites which have addressed the issue. It may not be important to you, but it's not irrelevent to the conversation IMHO.

My post intends to clarify some differences between the two devices in aid of having a conversation online.

For all who don't use the convertors or the mic pre's in either box, there will be just as many that do use them, making this an interesting, if not important part of the discussion.

You may think the choice between these two boxes is "cut and dry", I don't share your view at this point in time...........what I'm trying to do is to get to a place where the choice I make is the best choice for my use. I'm hoping this discussion will help me make an informed decision.

(the process of choosing equipment is half the fun for me, I enjoy talking about the ins and outs of any given piece of gear. If it's all 'cut and dry' the act of talking about it looses a lot of its pleasure)

[curleysound]

So what about the Fireface400? It's got a lot of what everyone seems to be looking for, costs less than the 800, and is 12v powered...

[Philip Perkins]

Re The Traveler clock--remember that in a sync sound setup you will be clocking the Traveler to an external source (like TC).

Philip Perkins

[Darren]

So what about the Fireface400? It's got a lot of what everyone seems to be looking for, costs less than the 800, and is 12v powered...

Agreed.  FF400 is a great unit.  But I don't think its a matter of finding the "best unit", or even one that meets "everyone's needs",  IMHO it's about understanding how different units may be more suitable to different users, depending on individual needs.  That's what I was referring to in my apples and oranges comments.  Each of these units has distinct advantages over the other.  However, they also have shortcomings relative to one another as well.  Whether the advantages outweigh the shortcomings, or not, will depend on the way that each user integrates the unit into the rest of their system.  You can't just compare the straight specs in total isolation, look at the results and then declare a winner.  If we did, we'd all be taking out 2nd mortgages and using Prism ADA-8XR interfaces.

None of this is meant to imply that that is what Silverking was thinking, or is doing.  He seems to have felt the need to defend his comments for which I apologize as that was not my intention at all.  I believe that one of his original posts asked why many users have chosen the Traveler.  My intent was to explain this.  But to sum up my previous post, The Traveler and the FF800 are very different units with different approaches and different feature sets.  While the FF800 is a great unit, it may not be entirely suitable for use on a lot of user's sound carts due to it's A/C requirements,.   And, as stated before, if pre-amps and clocking are your *main* concern, then the FF800 *would* be the one to choose between these two units.  However, also as previously stated, if you are completely concerned with specs, check out Prism.  If the RME and the MOTU are apples and oranges, the Prism is a very exotic fruit indeed.

Cheers,

Darren

[Guest silverking]

You tipped me to the Prism site Darren, and although $12,000.00 is a bit high for the ADA-8XR, what did catch me eye is this as yet unreleased interface:

http://www.prismsound.com/music_recording/products_subs/orpheus/orpheus_home.php

It's an AC box like the RME, but that aside, this looks like it might be worth looking at.

No doubt the convertors are based on the 'Dream' convertors, and the mic pre-amps are based on the Masselec's.......that's some high-end heritage..........what's your guess?..$3500.00?

What's becoming obvious to me as I look at these higher priced AC interface boxes is that the likely solution, considering the relatively low cost of the MOTU compared to the others is the possibility of buying both, and using what's appropriate given access to AC, or not.

I enjoy your posts Darren, you're inspiring me to look at the interface situation differently than I originally was.

[Darren]

You tipped me to the Prism site Darren, and although $12,000.00 is a bit high for the ADA-8XR, what did catch me eye is this as yet unreleased interface:

http://www.prismsound.com/music_recording/products_subs/orpheus/orpheus_home.php

It's an AC box like the RME, but that aside, this looks like it might be worth looking at.

No doubt the convertors are based on the 'Dream' convertors, and the mic pre-amps are based on the Masselec's.......that's some high-end heritage..........what's your guess?..$3500.00?

If I had to guess, I would guess around $7,000.  BUt I hope that your guess is closer!

What's becoming obvious to me as I look at these higher priced AC interface boxes is that the likely solution, considering the relatively low cost of the MOTU compared to the others is the possibility of buying both, and using what's appropriate given access to AC, or not.

I own several interfaces myself.  If you do feel that you want to go this route.  I would recommend starting off with the most versatile one as you may find after all of this that that will be all you need.  If not, you can still add the unit of your choice later.  It is not a bad idea to have a spare interface anyway, much in the same way that it's a good idea to have a spare recorder.  The additional interface can also be handy to pre-wire up an insert car, or for use with a playback system.

I enjoy your posts Darren, you're inspiring me to look at the interface situation differently than I originally was.

Thank you.

[curleysound]

Is it practical to power something like this off of an inverter, perhaps run through a furman power conditioner?

[Guest silverking]

That Prism Orpheus is going to come in at just over $5000.00 my Prism dealer tells me. It will ship at the end of the summer.

5K seems a bit much for an 'on cart converter' when you can get the RME for $1700.00 and the Traveler for under a grand.

So I picked up the Fireface 800 and am now comparing it to my Traveler. First impression is that major sonic differences are not immidiately apparent, and those that are revolve entirely around the mic pre's.

The overall gain path is easier to get up to where I like it in the Traveler. The RME seems to run (at least with the factory settings) lower in gain through the system overall. I believe I can boost the gain at each crosspoint in the software patchbay with the RME. Being able to set different gains inside each patchpoint is a nice feature.

The mixer software in the Traveller is far more user friendly than the RME software. (I didn't need the manual at all with the MOTU, but couldn't even get going without the manual with the RME).

The RME manual is poorly written, obviously by sombody who has english as a second language. (I've never understood why folks who market their products to english speaking counrties don't have folks who speak english as a first language write their manuals) The RME mix software is definitely powerful with a multitude of submixes available, but nowhere near as intuitive as the Traveler.

With my Schoeps mics, I get much more initial gain with the RME mic pre-amps than with the Traveler mic pres. In order to get the gain up through the entire system with the RME I think I need to experiment with increasing the gain at each patchpoint in the software patchbay. (the poorly written manual doesn't help me out much here!)

The RME sports Class A mic pre's, and as mentioned above, this is the most obvious sonic trait.

So far, aside from the obvious AC vs. bus power discussion, and the known elements like a superior onboard clocking system in the RME, the only real major sonic difference that is obvious right up front is that of the mic pre amps.

If you're using the pre's on your Cooper this won't matter much to you, but in this particular case, the RME may just offer up mic pre's that are the equal of, or perhaps even superior too, any of the panel mixer mic pre's.

My initial impressions of RME vs. Traveler are that if you're using the onboard mic pre's there's a sizable improvement with the RME. However, if you're using the line-ins there's not an apparent difference worthy of making note of.

Onward.

[Philip Perkins]

Thanks--good comparison and evaluation I think.

Philip Perkins