Want to Buy, Want to Sell

[Fiftyfoot]

Mr. Wexler,

A discussion on uninterested third parties leaving comments on posts for sale might be warranted. Other sites do have rules regarding this. http://www.dvxuser.c...-Before-Posting

A comment such as "That's a bit pricey" or "such technology is dated" does have the effect of handicapping, or killing a sale thread. These comments I suspect, come innocently intended, from seasoned union pros regarding pieces of kit intended for novices.

While knowlege is always helpful and appreciated, the question is: Who is entitled to kill a sale on JWSound?

Scott

[Jeff Wexler]

Well, we don't have rules... I guess that's obvious and it is what you are commenting on. This site really is not a Classified Sales site by any means, and the Want To Buy - Want To Sell section is really just a section like all the others. The answer to "Who is entitled to kill a sale on JWSound" I guess could be anyone. All the sections or categories we have here are DISCUSSION categories --- this is after all a Discussion Group forum style site. I understand how this open policy can be at odds with the section specifically setup for people who have something they want to sell and for those who may be looking to buy something. There was a point where I was going to KILL the whole section myself because of some of the trouble it was getting us all into.

For me to implement any special rules, other than just stating some guidelines I would like people to follow, just for that section, would be difficult. The only way I see that I could do this would be to have that section alone be Moderated (by me, of course), having to approve every post before it appears and not approving posts (comments) that could be disruptive. I don't want to do any of those things.

I think it is best to leave things as they are and those that are having problems using this site as a Classified Sales type site, Craigslist or Auction site, should post elsewhere.

Note: I have installed true Classified Sales sites and have thought about doing a separate but integrated site just for Sales and Purchases, but haven't followed through with any of that.

Additionally, I just looked at the DVXUser site and read everything they have to say about their "Marketplace" forum. There is no way I am going to go to all that effort to try and turn our "Want To Buy - Want To Sell" section into any kind of marketplace.

[OmahaAudio]

Who is entitled to kill a sale on JWSound?

Knowledge is power.

If someone's knowledge base is such that he/she can help someone else then I'm all for a comment like "Gee, that's really expensive given the current market." If you're trying to sell something at a price that's way over the norm then you should be prepared for rejection. Why should a seller be able to screw someone over just because a buyer is new to the market. As long as someone is willing to help them out by imparting their knowledge and experience then that should not only be allowed, but encouraged.

Mentoring does not necessarily have to do with purely technical questions but also with questions about "life".

[Johnny Karlsson]

+1 for Jim and Jeff's comments.

I have happily done business with a few of the members on this board, and feel that this is a fairly small community of smart, honest, professional people. Scammers have had the door slammed on their asses here, because of the fact that comments are allowed.

[John Blankenship]

No one that I know of is trying to torpedo anyone's legitimate sale.

This is a discussion group, so we discuss things. If someone wants an exclusively sales-oriented site, there's eBay. If someone wants to find gigs they can bitch about, there's Craig's List. If someone wants honest discussion with other sound professionals, there's JW Sound.

Each has its place.

I like that we have a "For Sale" section, it's a benefit to the community, but our raison d'etre is discussion.

[Fiftyfoot]

Understood.

The site I linked to does have a whole team of moderators and a less seasoned audience.

Also note, I never claimed intentional malice on anyone's part.

Scott

[pindrop]

I'm often surprised by the high asking price for used equipment in America, I often find myself thinking why would I pay that price I might just as well buy new!

It seems to me that in Europe depreciation for used equipment is much higher.

Anyone else think this is true and have any idea why this might be?

[Jeff Wexler]

"This is a discussion group, so we discuss things" thank you, John, I couldn't have said it better myself. Well, I actually did say it but I appreciate YOU saying it also. It's all good.

[RPSharman]

And I agree. This is a knowledge site. If someone is asking too much for old gear, then there's nothing wrong with experienced members letting our less experienced members know.

[fieldmixer]

Maybe that can be communicated by private message directly to the member instead of posted in the thread...

[RPSharman]

How would that work? Nobody would know who is looking at the gear for sale.

I would point out, in general, that there are way more comments reading "great deal" or "good equipment" and the like, than there are comments about gear being outdated or overpriced.

Mostly, those comments are perhaps thought and not written. But in general, prices here are pretty fair or the gear just doesn't sell.

[geordi]

Quite to the contrary... Prices here can sometimes be LOWER than they might otherwise be, and gear can sell right out from under an interested party!

I recall the 788 that had a BUNCH of interest about a month or so ago, where I responded about 15 minutes after the original post... And was #4 in line. I didn't get it. (drat!)

I like our sale section the way it is - friendly to the members here who would like to do business, and OPENLY hostile toward anything resembling a scammer.

[Fiftyfoot]

Despite my personal sour grapes, let's look at the post that got me to say something. Guy opens a musty drawer and lo and behold, he finds this neat old wooden box. He opens it and says wow, I need to Google this. He ends up here. Wouldn't you? Who else knows and appreciates this kind of thing?

He decides to price it at half the price of a new equivalant, and go down to the floor from there. Out comes the well meaning knowlege from those with no intention to buy. Suddenly his gem doesn't look so hot. Even to the dreamer who at present can't afford a 416.

If he sells this thing here, I assure you, I will introduce myself on 'Who I am today'. My new handle will be: Mr. Pointless Man. My pledge: I shall shut up and listen like the rest of the 2988 members of this board.

Scott

[Sound Grab]

There's always eBay.

But seriously, the guy joined yesterday and his first and only post is to sell something in the forums. Like Jeff said, this is more of a discussion group than a marketplace. I think most of us expect people here to first participate in the forums, and if you've been on here long enough, you should know your posts have a potential to get eaten alive.

[David Waelder]

Out comes the well meaning knowlege from those with no intention to buy. Suddenly his gem doesn't look so hot.

Aha!

So it was my post that precipitated this discussion about "killing" a sale.

The funny thing is that I was stating that it was an "excellent microphone." I went on to state that it used the same capsule as the current model and that the electronic design was identical. The only thing that differentiates it from the current model, I said, was the size of the slots in the interference tube. The only caveat I had was that it was made thirty years ago.

I think you're hyper sensitive. If anything, I may have brought attention to the item. And, any fool can tell from the 415 model number that it's not the current 416 model. My comments ought to reassure an interested person that it would have equivalent performance. Did I reveal a secret when I said it was made around 1972? Were you looking for a buyer who didn't know that?

David Waelder

[Jim Feeley]

Ya, it is/was priced kind of high. At least, about 10 years ago I bought a well-used (but well-maintained) 416T for $500. But here's a little anecdote about why it's worth participating in the general discussion here.

About six weeks ago, I suddenly needed another wireless system. I had fairly particular make/model/block requirements...just like all of us. I had a hazy memory of seeing one for sale on these boards a few weeks prior. So I did a search, found the for-sale listing, noticed that the person selling it was a regular participant here (Michael McQueen, for those who care) whom I've never met in person but basically trusted because he was clearly an actual mixer, seemed level headed, and all that.

I emailed him, he called me (or something like that), and we finalized the transaction in like 10 minutes (money transfer via PayPal). I needed the system right away, so Michael went out of his way and got the system in the post and on its way to me the same day.

I could have saved some money by waiting for something to show up on eBay or by buying a system from someone who I didn't know at all. But I, and I think Michael, had a sense that this transaction was going to be pain free. And it was. And that's worth something to me, not just in terms of warm fuzzies but in terms of how much I was willing to spend for peace of mind.

So anyway, even if some people here think your item is overpriced...

1) they may be right.

2) you might still sell the thing at your asking price.

3) or you and a potential buyer might agree on a compromise price.

4) or someone might think the item is worth a bit more money because they need it right away and would rather buy from someone they know at least on some level.

[John Blankenship]

Wow, I never took anything negative from the discussion about the 415.

It's amazing how some people see the same things differently.

Jim's wireless buying story illustrates how this is a community. People who participate, benefit the most because they become a more integral part of that community.

[Marc Wielage]

I have occasionally sent private messages to people saying, "hey, just a friendly word of advice: you might want to consider lowering your price -- the new price on eBay is such-and-such." And most of the time they thank me and cut the price accordingly.

I would never comment publicly on something like this -- I figure, hey, it's America... people can price things any way they want.

And a couple of times when I did want something, I'd email the buyer and say, "hey, would you take X dollars less?" Sometimes it works, sometimes not. As Michael Corleone said: "it's just business."

[Jeff Wexler]

"Jim's wireless buying story illustrates how this is a community. People who participate, benefit the most because they become a more integral part of that community."

Exactly. I like the fact we discuss these things. I honestly believe their is added benefit to us all beyond just whether something sells or not, gets "killed" or goes through nicely with two satisfied people, buyer and seller.

[taylormadeaudio]

I don't see anything wrong with the replies on that post... there was some discussion (key word here) about the mount, and further discussion about the design characteristics of the mic in question -- along with comparisons to a newer model by the same manufacturer... I don't see how any of that would cause the seller to get anything less than a reasonable price for the product. I think it's presumptuous to say a reply can "kill" a potential sale. If the price is too high and someone simply points that out, I would suggest that the price is what killed the sale.

...just my $.02

~tt

[OmahaAudio]

I'm often surprised by the high asking price for used equipment in America, I often find myself thinking why would I pay that price I might just as well buy new!

It seems to me that in Europe depreciation for used equipment is much higher.

Anyone else think this is true and have any idea why this might be?

One reason could be that most European countries have a Value Added Tax (15-20%?) that's higher than the average US sales tax (5-7%?) and that the more substantial discounts offered on new equipment offered in the US market just takes that money right off the top.

Way back when (the 80s) I was able to pay for numerous trips to the UK by 1) buying a s/h Fender or Gibson guitar in the US for $300-400, 2) selling it in the UK for triple that, 3) buying one or two Marshall amp heads in the UK for $150 each and then 4) selling them in NY for triple that. The difference in the market was that big.

The Internet killed that lovely scam.

On the other hand I can usually buy box-set DVDs from Amazon UK for 1/3rd to 1/2 the price that Amazon US sells them for, including shipping.

[studiomprd]

I used to sell Blue Jeans, even "pre-worn" --by me-- in the (former) USSR at a substantial profit

[John Blankenship]

So, we now have people admitting publicly to smuggling.

Anybody want to fess up to a murder. Maybe it'll quell your conscience.

[jason porter]

I murdered 2 delicious slices of Vesuvio's pizza and a Limonata @ lunch today.

Glad to get that off my chest.

[Arnold F.]

If someone doesn't like my price then they can move along and not buy the item. Posting "Too much" in my sale thread, while not literally against the rules of the forum, goes against some other rules that we generally accept in society so that we can all get along.

It is not against any rule for me to walk down the street yelling profanities at people but if I extend the logic presented in earlier posts to this admittedly more extreme, yet still applicable example, it is therefore absolutely okay. There is much we can do in the public sphere that is not unlawful but is nevertheless rude, insulting, intimidating or just a matter of getting into business that isn't one's own.

Further, I reject the argument that posting comments in a sale thread is "helping" someone who might be new to buying gear or whatnot. It's the job of everyone to know the value of things before they buy and, in these days of free, plentiful knowledge, there are ample ways to do that. If there were minors here to protect it would be a different story. I painstakingly research value before I spend $100, much less $2000.

My opinion on the value or quality of something is entirely subjective and it's as useful for me to post it in someone's sale thread as it is for me to stand next to a rack of t-shirts at the Gap and tell every interested party that the shirts are too blue. Can I argue that I'm helping the consumer who might not be fully aware how blue the shirt is?

I have KILLED, to use Jeff's word, the hopelessly polluted sale thread I started because someone said they thought what I was selling was too blue, and because it subsequently became a thread having nothing to do with it's intent.

Even though the moderator has cleared the path for me to post opinions or negative comments in every single sale thread, I will never do so. I don't need a written rule to tell me it's neither useful nor polite. More to the point of this whole thread, I don't use the absence of a rule to justify doing something that I shouldn't. It's interesting to see who here does.

EDIT: It's interesting to see who here does BESIDES the "Senator" guy who wouldn't stop PM'ing me even after I asked him to stop, and who deliberately killed my sales thread again today.