Nima Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Dear JWSounders, Here's my case... I'm looking to buy my first shotgun microphone by financing it. Typically, I do location sound for indoor shoots, in some less controllable environments (see offices, industrial buildings, etc.). However, I would love to be able to use my first shotgun for the occasional outdoor shoot as well. The Question: What are your experiences with using the following microphones outdoors? If positive, how would you go about in windy environments, and/or when you're further away from the talent? Schoeps CMC641 MKH-8050, or MKH50 DPA 4017 Sanken CS3-E Other suggestions? I should also mention, that for most of my shoots, I do have access to an NTG-3 as well through the people I usually work for. Thanks so much in advance for your time and for sharing your knowledge, Nima Shams P.S. I understand that most people here are professionals, and I'm a real rookie (not even a year of location sound yet)... So if my question is stupid, please pardon me... I'm still a work-in-progress... D.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Moore Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 An MKH 50 might make a fine choice for a versatile hyper. Although the 8050 would allow you to 'grow' into the 8060 if you decide to buy filter modules and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benr Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 First of all, not all of those mics you listed are considered or called "shotgun" mics. Several are either super or hyper cardioid pick up pattern mics. Proceeding on, typically in a professional kit, there are many mics for many different types of circumstances, much broader than "indoor" or "outdoor". That being said, if it were me (and really that isnt saying much as I am NOT a professional in this field), Id go with the Sennheiser MKH 50 with a Rycote Baby Ball Gag and associated WindJammer all mounted in a Rycote InVision shockmount on a K-Tek boom pole for an all in one solution. And in fact, that is what I own. The thing that scared me off from the Schoeps was their sometimes failure in various environment conditions. The Sennheisers are well known for just working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nima Posted April 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 An MKH 50 might make a fine choice for a versatile hyper. Although the 8050 would allow you to 'grow' into the 8060 if you decide to buy filter modules and such. Spencer, thanks so much for the quick response. I'm a little confused though, do you mean that it will be like an 8060 using the MZF8000 filter? First of all, not all of those mics you listed are considered or called "shotgun" mics. Several are either super or hyper cardioid pick up pattern mics. Proceeding on, typically in a professional kit, there are many mics for many different types of circumstances, much broader than "indoor" or "outdoor". That being said, if it were me (and really that isnt saying much as I am NOT a professional in this field), Id go with the Sennheiser MKH 50 with a Rycote Baby Ball Gag and associated WindJammer all mounted in a Rycote InVision shockmount on a K-Tek boom pole for an all in one solution. And in fact, that is what I own. The thing that scared me off from the Schoeps was their sometimes failure in various environment conditions. The Sennheisers are well known for just working. benr, thanks so much for that! I'll look into that solution for sure. The reason why I'm trying to go with a versatile mic is because it will simply cost me way too much to have one mic for every new situation. I guess in extreme cases, I'll go with rentals. But how have that kit treated you in outdoor conditions? Do you find it blocks wind OK, and do you manage to use it in wider shots as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Hi, and welcome... the Schoeps and Sennheisers you list are not "shotguns", that is they are not interference tube type microphones, but are hyper-cardioid mic's, with a different physical (acoustic) method of being directional. The interference tube type microphones tend to be a but more sensitive to reflected sound (reverb). Microphone choices, options and recommendations are discussed here frequently, recently, and perhaps even "ad naseum". as a new member of jwsoundnet with FAQ's, a search of the site (forums) would be a good place to start, and then perhaps ask "better" questions... " I'm a little confused though, do you mean that it will be like an 8060 using the MZF8000 filter? " actually you are a lot confused... the Sennheiser 60's are interference tube "shotgun" mic's, and the 50's are hyper-cardioid (the 40's are cardioid) the 8000 series is newer, smaller, and also modular -similar to the Schoeps... you really need to do some reading up on this, as I noted there are numerous discussions, and of course the information available from the manufacturers (usually their websites). better still, contact one of the Professional Production Sound specialist dealers (our "usual suspects") and discuss your situation and needs with them. Their sales rep's are not on commission and always put helping the customer find their own best solution (which is quite subjective!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benr Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 The Sennheiser 8000 series is a capsule system like the Schoeps CMC / MK system is. The mic is made up of two parts, the power supply and the microphone capsule. Once you buy the power supply you can then buy different heads with different pick up patterns. What he was stating was that once you have the 8050, you need only buy the capsule to make the mic an 8060. Though they dont come cheap, it is an option just like the Schoeps system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toy Robot Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 It's not that your question is stupid, as that it these types of questions have been discussed many times before. Please search this forum for details on the use of different types of microphones. Users here dislike doing work that you should have done for yourself in the first place (research); although at times I think people may do it accidentally. I also don't mean offense. There are many rookies here, and if you're paying attention, you'll always be learning no matter what your experience level! But please do searches on your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 BTW, "shotgun" mic's are typically not our first choice for indoors use, due to their acoustic properties. " questions have been discussed many times before " thus they are FAQ's (frequently asked questions ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nima Posted April 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 I would like to thank you all for your responses, I'll get back to the drawing-board and will do my research better. But what you've told me already clears a lot of my confusion, so it'll help me a lot. Thanks so much Spencer Moore, benr, studiomprd, and Toy Robot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benr Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Also OP, if youre serious about learning sound, then as was suggested to me and Im glad I did, buy and read this book and you will have a MUCH better understanding of the whole picture and will be more adequately educated to come back and ask questions more detailed and specific and less broad, vague and difficult for folks around here to answer: LINK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nima Posted April 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Also OP, if youre serious about learning sound, then as was suggested to me and Im glad I did, buy and read this book and you will have a MUCH better understanding of the whole picture and will be more adequately educated to come back and ask questions more detailed and specific and less broad, vague and difficult for folks around here to answer: LINK Thanks so much! I'll place an order today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Sanken CS-3e Schoeps CMIT 5U or SuperCMIT Sennheiser 416 Sennheiser MKH8060 Sennheiser MKH70 Rode NTG-3 and the list is long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Do the opposite: Get a outdoor shotgun that sound good indoors: Cmit or mkh8060 Sent from my HD7 T9292 using Board Express Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Moore Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 I would suggest not buying a Schoeps for your first main mic. I do love the way the CMC41 sounds outside, but they can sometimes be troublesome in overly hot and/or humid conditions. I was once shooting in a Harlem apartment in august, and sure enough I start hearing that whistling and popping sound. I also had the schoeps poop out once on an unventilated sound stage (Not kidding). You might even try just buying a used Sennheiser 416. As my friend says "its like the estwing hammer of mics". Used they can be found for around 600ish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Futterman Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 +1 on the 416. Very versatile and durable, and quite easy to find on consignment. Indoors I find it picks up far too much reverb in most spaces. Best bet is to have a solid shotgun and a solid hyper. You could probably find a used 416 and mkh 50 for less than the cost of a used CMIT. Plus sennheisers are known for their durability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 If most of your work is inside, as you say, then MKH50 would be my choice. I use it outside a lot, and inside almost exclusively. I do own CMIT and 416. They are both good choices, if used properly, but the 50 is just better inside, I think, and if that's the majority of your work... I use Rycoye System 2 outside. Baby Ball Gag ok, from what I hear, but I've always used the full system. Works like a charm. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmahaAudio Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 "Other suggestions?" If I may suggest the Audio Technica AT4053b as a good indoor hyper-cardioid (not a true "shotgun" but what you might be thinking of as an indoor shotgun). They're $600 or so new but I got a like-new one on Ebay for $400. Please excuse Mike's abuse. He seems to have very little patience with lesser beings, and by "lesser beings" I mean anyone that isn't him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 Many good suggestions above. I would also add, if you're not already familiar with the sound of these mikes, rent them before you buy. Any good pro audio store should have a decent selection of rental mikes, and some will even apply the rental fee to the purchase price. The individual characteristics of microphone sound are so subjective, you could line up five decent models and get a different impression from each of them -- some well suited for some applications, some better for others. My choice is generally a Schoeps CMC641 or Sennheiser MKH50 for indoors, and an MKH60 or even an MKH70 for outdoors. When I was first starting out, I went for an MKH40 for interiors and the venerable MKH416 for exteriors. That plus a couple of wireless lavs can handle a large number of different situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 " excuse Mick's abuse. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benr Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 "Other suggestions?" If I may suggest the Audio Technica AT4053b as a good indoor hyper-cardioid (not a true "shotgun" but what you might be thinking of as an indoor shotgun). They're $600 or so new but I got a like-new one on Ebay for $400. Please excuse Mick's abuse. He seems to have very little patience with lesser beings, and by "lesser beings" I mean anyone that isn't him. I recently upgraded from the AT4053B to the MKH 50 and can say for the money the AT4053B is a great way to go, however the sound and lower noise Ive been getting from the MKH 50 have been worlds better than I was ever able to get from the AT4053B. So I would highly advise the OP if he/she can afford it, going with a higher end mic is DEF worth it. If most of your work is inside, as you say, then MKH50 would be my choice. I use it outside a lot, and inside almost exclusively. I do own CMIT and 416. They are both good choices, if used properly, but the 50 is just better inside, I think, and if that's the majority of your work... I use Rycoye System 2 outside. Baby Ball Gag ok, from what I hear, but I've always used the full system. Works like a charm. Robert Hmmm, I have a Baby Ball Gag on my MKH 50 now and it still seems very sensitive to wind noise unless the Windjammer is on there as well. I have read about people putting tape over the setting switches on the side as they claim air gets in there. Do you do that? Ive just contacted Redding Audio about purchasing the Rycote Windshield Kit 2 Windjammer and Center blimp piece with the plan to make the Windshield Kit 4 I already own and use for my MKH-416 pull double duty as a full kit for my MKH 50. Means Ill have to return the 25mm Baby Ball Gag I just bought for the MKH 50 and that the whole rig would be heavier with the full kit, but if it cuts down the wind noise better itll be worth it when using where ever there is a draft or breeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nima Posted April 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 WOW! Thanks so much for all the great advice! At this point I'm leaning towards this: An MKH-8050 capsule and power A Rycote Full Windshield System to go with the MKH-8050 A small boompole such as Rycote's "Coiled Carbon Fibre G5 Boom Pole", QX 550/565 or one of the smaller graphite k-teks. Eventually, I'll add an MKH-8060 to the collection as well Eventually, I'll also buy a soundbag, as opposed to renting one every time. Now I just have to do some more research and actually compare those mics in order to find out whether it truly is the right one. I will let you know how it goes. Again, thanks so much everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Moore Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 WOW! Thanks so much for all the great advice! At this point I'm leaning towards this: An MKH-8050 capsule and power A Rycote Full Windshield System to go with the MKH-8050 A small boompole such as Rycote's "Coiled Carbon Fibre G5 Boom Pole", QX 550/565 or one of the smaller graphite k-teks. Eventually, I'll add an MKH-8060 to the collection as well Eventually, I'll also buy a soundbag, as opposed to renting one every time. Now I just have to do some more research and actually compare those mics in order to find out whether it truly is the right one. I will let you know how it goes. Again, thanks so much everyone! If you haven't used an internally coiled pole before I would suggest playing with them first. Especially with a very sensitive mic on the top since the cable can slap around on the inside. I know from my personal experience I've preferred wrapping the poles on the outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 Yep, I have the MKH8050 and the 8040 and an internally coiled Loon boom pole. If you're doing quick movements or at long extension, you'll pick up the cable slap, and it imparts low freq. noise into the mic too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 " Eventually, I'll also buy a soundbag, as opposed to renting one every time. " nags aren't that expensive, but they are personal.... buy your own Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmahaAudio Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 " Eventually, I'll also buy a soundbag, as opposed to renting one every time. " nags aren't that expensive, but they are personal.... buy your own Do you mean "bags"? Although a nag could be personal too, depending on what you're used to doing with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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