Off-Camera Dialog

[Noah Timan]

Hate to say it, but "it depends"...

My advice, if it is at all possible, is to talk to your post team (that includes picture as well as sound editorial). Some editors may find the off-camera dialog recordings really valuable. Some may want them in the mix. Others may be content to have them off mic the mix if they are there in the isos. Others may not care if they are recorded at all.

There are as many differing opinions amongst picture editors/dialog editors/post supervisors/etc as there are amongst us. Like us, the post team may have varying experience levels in different segments of our craft, different preferences and proclivities, and so forth.

To suggest that there's one way of doing things suggests that everyone in post has the same methods, expectations, and workflow. They don't. They're all different, and it's up to us to establsh a line of communication with them to find out what they want. It's not just a benefit to them, but a benefit to us. For example, if the particular picture editor on one project tells you that they don't use off camera lines in the cut, and the dialog editor tells you they don't have time search for off camera lines as alts, well, that might save you a lot of time and effort and stress you and your team might otherwise spend trying to boom, record, and mix them.

On the other hand, it'd also be a dangerous assumption, in my opinion, to go into the next project assuming that off-camera lines aren't needed on THAT project just because your last post team didn't need/want them.

My .02

nvt

[Mark Andrews]

This is really interesting- I was taught not to cover off-camera lines if it's covered on another shot in drama shoots (however if they've got mic on them I'll roll ISOs, not going to the main mix). I was working on a very loosely scripted drama yesterday, and lines were changing between takes quite frequently, so used a plant mic for the off-camera dialogue.

For doco stuff with an off-camera interviewer, I'll try and get a radio on them- but they often seem to insist their voice won't be on the final mix... (and how often is it?)

I agree with Richard here, it is a very interesting topic. I was also taught not to worry about off-camera dialog that is being covered in another shot. If they are already lav'd i'll put it in the mix. Or sometimes when it's appropriate i'll place a second boom mic on a stand. But that is a "we have everything else done and have some spare time.." situation.

As for the interview scenario, if i'm told they don't want their voice, I don't argue with them in an attempt to mic them.

~Mark.

[Bondelev]

In my experience, I think you'd be surprised how often an editor cuts in an off-mike line without even realizing it. For that reason I encourage making off-camera lines, especially when they overlap. And especially now that we have split tracks.

Actors often get upset about this because they are used to lazy acting off-camera, but frequently once they know they are being miked, they get used to being "on" all the time.

However, if a director or actor really objects, it is not worth getting into a fight. I would be careful if you are doing a single mix track, do not add the off camera material if it adds a lot of noise for those lines.

[studiomprd]

" Hate to say it, but ..... "]

Why ?"

and, Noah, that was an excellent response.

[John Bauman]

I always expect to record every line from a scene. It's not always possible, for reasons that have been stated. I don't like to mix in an off camera wire with an on camera boom, so I never do it.

In a noisy location: I'll probably just use wires. If they are noisy, I'll switch to boom for closeups and stick to the on camera only. I'll then inform the director that opening multiple mics will compromise his soundtrack and request overlap free passes.

Bad background/ambience (eg. camera noise): If I expect overlaps, we'll get with the departments in question well in advance and do everything possible to mitigate the noise. It's usually enough to be able to open two mics, unless the dialogue is extremely low whispering. Sometimes I simply have to ask for a little more voice.

Quiet location/stage: For boomable shots, I always record the off camera. I haven't had an actor ask me not to yet, but in that case, I'd have to accomodate them. Provided, of course, they don't turn around and overlap the on camera

For long scenes I like to record iso's if I can wire everyone.

[Doug Beatty]

I feel like this thread should be a sticky. I'm amazed at how many 'aha' moments I have had reading through all of the thoughtful responses to the topic. It's really enlightening, especially for someone like myself that is slowly working their way up the production sound game.

My hat is off to everyone who has posted (except the Senator- for him, I put on a second 'compliments' hat)

[johnskog]

The mix track makes us mixers. Give them your best shot at a finished mix. You've got isos in your back pocket whenever you screw up.

[Marc Wielage]

I agree, John. When the day comes that they just want all isos, then all we are is recordists, which is not the job title I want.

This is no different from a DP being told, "just go out there and capture footage -- we'll light it all in post." Removing the art from the job is not the solution. It merely postpones the decisions for later.

[studiomprd]

" "just go out there and capture footage..." "

there are a lot of so called moviemakers and wanna'bee DP's doing it that way...

all you need is an HD camera, right ??

[geordi]

It has ISO 350,000 capability, so we don't NEED lights on this movie! It will be great! All natural and flowing, one long take into the next!

(For the record, if people DO start trying to pass that crap off as an actual marketable product... I'm going to start looking at Subway for career options.)

[Rick Reineke]

" "just go out there and capture footage..." "

there are a lot of so called moviemakers and wanna'bee DP's doing it that way...

all you need is an HD camera, right ??

Right! Thousands out there already with their DSLRs calling themselves DPs, pity their po' freinds with less cash.. buy a Zoom and a broom stick.. and they call themselves, guess what?

Don't you get it Senitor, as the equipment cost goes down, so does the needed skill level... at least that seems to be the consensus with the Craigs List/Subway sandwhich crowd.

[Christian Spaeth]

A drama series I regularly work on has one director who won't accept any word from the sound dept. about overlapping lines. There is no money for a second boom so at best you have the lav ISO or the boom covers it all, risking losing bits of the on camera action. Post knows about this so they deal with it and have more work with the episodes of this specific directors. I think the key is to be very clear about this with the director, and if they insist on overlaps, talk to post. If everybody knows this, nobody will get into trouble.

When there are no overlaps I definitely drop the off camera lines, as long as they're really off. Giving post too many options may not always be the best way to go either. We're mixers, so we do select in our mix track what sounds best to our ears.

[Mark Orusa]

Did anyone see the movie Ghost Town with Ricky Gervais? There is a scene with him and Kristen Wiig with a lot of overlap - she cuts him off at almost every sentence. I wonder how much of a pain it was trying to edit that. I'm still surprised when actors are allowed to step all over each other.

Mark O.

[studiomprd]

" I'm still surprised when actors are allowed to step all over each other. "

overlaps = style over substance...

that is not how people converse!

Actors usually have to work at it.

I've seen (heard) actors respond to another actors question before it was asked!

[Jeff Wexler]

I worked on one movie where the director routinely gave the actors the direction: "okay, on this one I want 'EXTREME OVERLAPS' " and it certainly was true that the actors had to work at it, often repeating scripted lines to fill all the spaces, often in an order that made no sense for the scene. There was some difficulty putting these scenes together and in the final movie, very few of the scenes played with extreme overlaps.

[RPSharman]

I find this regularly on "intentional" overlaps, that the overlapping character doesn't even wait for the other character to finish enough of the line to have the overlap even make sense.

I find that in many cases, when the director has given the overlap direction, that it helps to bring the script issue up with the script supervisor.

Sometimes, like with issues of intelligibility, we have to gently remind the director that he/she knows what the actors are saying, reading it and hearing it dozens of times. The audience will only get one chance to know what they're saying.

Robert

[soundtrane]

It's mostly got to do with the fact that they dont shoot anymore like they used to. nowadays, almost everything is about "coverage" and then "building the scene at the edit" because the so-called directors are incapable of pre-visualising the scene according to the narrative requirements.

[studiomprd]

" the so-called directors are incapable... "

exactly...

they are too busy thrashing around, as evidenced by: " in the final movie, very few of the scenes played with extreme overlaps ", even though "it must have seemed like a cool idea at the time.." perhaps.?

[Mark Orusa]

I've worked with too many inexperienced directors that have no clue what they are going to end up with in post. They don't realize that the overlap often makes the lines unusable or necessitates ADR.

The one that really gets me is when they don't wait for the traffic or airplane to pass before doing another take. Once they get into post they start saying, "What is that noise? Can't you get rid of it?".

Mark O.

[taylormadeaudio]

I've worked with too many inexperienced directors that have no clue what they are going to end up with in post. They don't realize that the overlap often makes the lines unusable or necessitates ADR.

The one that really gets me is when they don't wait for the traffic or airplane to pass before doing another take. Once they get into post they start saying, "What is that noise? Can't you get rid of it?".

Mark O.

Man... don't get me started :

~tt

[Mark Orusa]

Man... don't get me started :

~tt

You know exactly what I mean ; )

I'm starting to sound like a grumpy old sound mixer already

Mark O.

[taylormadeaudio]

You know exactly what I mean ; )

I'm starting to sound like a grumpy old sound mixer already

Mark O.

Haha, too funny!

"Anger, fear, aggression... the dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

Have fun in Moses Lake -- let me know when you're back around?

~tt