Personal backup systems

[Denielle]

One topic that keeps coming up for me, is backup. Not during a shoot, but after the shoot is over. Is there a standard for this? I have a drive that I keep my files on for the duration of the shoot, and I feel it is necessary for me to hold onto them for a period of time afterward... but, how long is long enough?

Wondering how you all handle this as a part of your workflow...

[Richard Lightstone, CAS]

I hold onto my archival files of any show until it is through the final mix.

[Scott Aitken]

Denielle,

i have a huge 2 tb Glyph harddrive that i dump everything to every couple movies from my 788 SSD. I'll keep stuff on that for about a year and periodically trash movies i know are finished post or i've seen on cable! It's overkill but one movie a few years ago lost all of my dvd ram discs somehow and i looked like the hero and have been hired on every one of that director's movies since then.

Just last month the kids show i'm working on had an entire raid drive system get fried somehow and i had to give them my backups for the shooting days thus far....it was easy and got them back up working with no problems from our department.

It's rare but i'd rather be the soundperson that has a backup no matter what in this digital age where files can be lost to many issues.

[Toy Robot]

I am obsessive about backups. I backup backups. Seriously. I used to work at an IT firm as a project manager, and I was taught by the technicians that your files MUST exist in at least three (3) places, all independent of one another. This means a RAID system, or some form of backup that is as close to foolproof as you can get.

My best backup so far is a high capacity DropBox account with the PackRat setting enables for an extra $4.95 a month or something like that. The way it works is this: I have fifty (50+) GB that I can upload to DropBox (DB). DB then archives the files on a professional RAID system built by IT technicians at a multi-million dollar facility. Once my files are uploaded to DB, I can retrieve the files at any time forever. Forever.

So I can remove them from my computer and then search DB for deleted files two years later and I can download them. This gives me the confidence that even if my apartment burns down, the client will get their sound files, and I cannot be blamed.

My details of how I backup can be found somewhere on the JW forum, but I lost it and can't find it now. I'm possibly over-killing the backups, but in my mind, you can NEVER have too many backups in the digital realm. I'm currently working on a project where and I had a backup of a backup (#3) from my 552, and even though I was able to recover the files from the 744t, the backup from the 552 would have saved me if I hadn't been able too get them off the 744t.

It's how I sleep at night. Every day immediately after wrap if my MBP is near, or every night before bed is Media Management time.

[John Blankenship]

+1 to Alex's post.

Right along with his comments, the way I learned it is, "If the file doesn't exist in three places, it doesn't exist."

[Mirror]

I feel that it is not my job or responsibility to store this stuff. I'll keep it for a few weeks but beyond that if they haven't figured out there is a problem with the sound or transfer/download or whatever then it wasn't very important to them in the first place. Usually post will let you know the next morning if there is a problem.

[John Blankenship]

I feel that it is not my job or responibility to store this stuff. I'll keep it for a few weeks but beyond that if they haven't figured out there is a problem with the sound or transfer/download or whatever then it wasn't very important to them in the first place. Usually post will let you know the next morning if there is a problem.

I don't disagree. I think that keeping it longer is a personal choice and shouldn't necessarily be expected.

Keeping that in mind, I've heard "we lost the disc" several weeks after a commercial shoot. I was able to give them a backup along with another copy of the sound log.

[Geoff Tirrell]

I'm onboard with the keep it for a year or more crowd. I have a a 3 tb system that I keep my archival video on for the other side of my business. Part of that space is dedicated to backup invoicing and audio files from old jobs. I will admit that it is usually at least 1-2 years before I dump things but that is usually more about finding time for spring cleaning than anything. I do tell my clients that I am holding sound for 1 year which usually makes them happy since everybody is paranoid about data loss these days.

[BrianW]

...The way it works is this: I have fifty (50+) GB that I can upload to DropBox...

Is 50 GB the total? I have 50 GB so far just for April.

I have 3 hard drives that everything is stored on, and I use iDrive to back up the archive. When I get back from a shoot, I dump that day's files onto a "primary" hard drive organized by date. Once dumped, I copy all those files onto a 2nd hard drive organized by client/project. That one gets backed up to a 2TB external drive, and the "primary" gets automatically backed up to iDrive every night at 2am.

All this after a virus wiped out everything current that I had at the time, just over a year ago - 3 hard drives all wiped since it attacked every drive that was mapped on that computer, including a network drive which was a folder on another computer. My backups didn't help that time, since they were all connected to the same computer.

[RPSharman]

Storage is so cheap and easy.

I keep it until I've seen it.

[pindrop]

Is 50 GB the total? I have 50 GB so far just for April.

I have 3 hard drives that everything is stored on, and I use iDrive to back up the archive. When I get back from a shoot, I dump that day's files onto a "primary" hard drive organized by date. Once dumped, I copy all those files onto a 2nd hard drive organized by client/project. That one gets backed up to a 2TB external drive, and the "primary" gets automatically backed up to iDrive every night at 2am.

All this after a virus wiped out everything current that I had at the time, just over a year ago - 3 hard drives all wiped since it attacked every drive that was mapped on that computer, including a network drive which was a folder on another computer. My backups didn't help that time, since they were all connected to the same computer.

Scary story - I had a virus on a PC which was very persistent but not initially totally destructive, and managed by some fairly convoluted means to recover from it.

Are you PC or Mac? PC I guess as I've never heard of a virus that can do that to a Mac?

How did the virus wipe the drives, overwriting them multiple times or making them inaccessible? Did that include the boot drive?

Did you try means to recover the drives if so what?

What was the name of the virus?

Do you know how the virus was contracted?

Did the virus attempt to communicate anything about it's activities?

[Toy Robot]

Is 50 GB the total? I have 50 GB so far just for April.

...

Yeah, it's actually 63GB to be precise, which I achieved free space from DB by recommending people who opened accounts. But you are spot on, it's not very much space at all. Which is why I pointed out the PackRat feature. I upload the sound files, verify they are done and then delete them from the site.

The sound files are still backed up at home on the MBP and the TimeCapsule, plus the client has them, so they are in four (4) different locations (and often the original 'rolls' until the project is over), and one of those locations is a multi-million dollar facility designed to never lose data and to store my stuff forever.

It works for me, and it's cheap IMHO.

[Richard Lightstone, CAS]

This discussion brings up an interesting legal issue for those of you who keep multiple backups of your production recording files.

The material we record is considered "work for hire" and thus exclusively belongs to the Studio/networks/production company, etc.

It's a good working habit to have at least one backup in case of a disaster, either equipment failure, theft, fire etc. Yes, it might save the day and give you hero status with your employer.

But there is also a huge legal liability issue with your files that are in your possession long after the original media was handed off to the company. What if your backups were stolen and then ended up on the internet, much like the infamous Christian Bale rant?

Isn't the owner of the material, the Studio/networks/production company really responsible for creating multiple copies for their protection?

I say make a complete backup of the episode or feature as quickly as possible when shooting is completed and hand that copy over to them. It's certainly reasonable for you to ask them to buy the needed archival drives to facilitate this.

Once the archival materiel is in the possession of the "corporate author", your hands are clean and you've done the correct thing.

[RPSharman]

This discussion brings up an interesting legal issue for those of you who keep multiple backups of your production recording files.

The material we record is considered "work for hire" and thus exclusively belongs to the Studio/networks/production company, etc.

It's a good working habit to have at least one backup in case of a disaster, either equipment failure, theft, fire etc. Yes, it might save the day and give you hero status with your employer.

But there is also a huge legal liability issue with your files that are in your possession long after the original media was handed off to the company. What if your backups were stolen and then ended up on the internet, much like the infamous Christian Bale rant?

Isn't the owner of the material, the Studio/networks/production company really responsible for creating multiple copies for their protection?

I say make a complete backup of the episode or feature as quickly as possible when shooting is completed and hand that copy over to them. It's certainly reasonable for you to ask them to buy the needed archival drives to facilitate this.

Once the archival materiel is in the possession of the "corporate author", your hands are clean and you've done the correct thing.

That makes sense. I don't really think about theft, but I suppose I should.

[ccsnd]

I have 500 gigs allocated on my mac mini I use for metacorder and 1tb on my backup / mirror drive.

I keep backups until I need the space. When I need to get rid of something I go to the oldest production, email the production and ask them if they mind if I delete, when I get the ok, I delete.

If for whatever reason I can't delete something, I just go get a new drive. They are fairly cheap.

[fieldmixer]

I NEED to +1 Richard Lightstones comment above. Well stated fair and balanced position.

We do not own the recorded material. Setting up multiple backups and timecapsules and clouds... Why?I understand the feeling of wanting to be the hero and be celebrated for saving the day in the "just in case" scenario but, in the present day, as a group, we contribute in small and big ways to setting standards and precedents.

I do not see any reason why a sound recordist or mixer need add a full skillset of data wrangling, duplication, asset management etc... to the end of our day or weekend.

I heartily agree with the fair position of, hand off all data as soon as possible, keep one backup till production makes a back up. Follow up within a couple days and move on. (Read delete).

The longer any one of us retains these files "in case", the more responsible we become for everything retaining them entails. *We are not responsible*

(what I want to say) :

"here are the files, make two backups immediately, I'm clearing my harddrive for my next project in 48hrs"

My two cents. That harsh?

[Jon Gilbert]

(what I want to say) :

"here are the files, make two backups immediately, I'm clearing my harddrive for my next project in 48hrs"

My two cents. That harsh?

Not harsh at all, and that is the way I work with some clients, but the regulars, and the ones I rely on, I keep the audio for as long as I can, and on a couple of occasions it's been really helpful, so I'll continue to do it.

I did once have one Production Manager ever so slightly freak out when she overheard a conversation where I said I still had back ups of the audio from series one of a show I worked on, when we were half way through series two, not long after, the Director contacted me as he needed a couple of clips for a promo piece, I was a hero for the day

[Geoff Tirrell]

I would note there is one time I do not keep backups or only keep them for a week or so until the client gets everything copied. That is corporate/industrial/medical videos, or rather anything that might be of a sensitive nature in that regard. This is not everything in those categories but I do occasionally get a call for a job that involves products that are not out yet or similar sensitive information. In those cases I ask the field producer or whoever is in charge of the data for the job, what they want. In most cases they tell me to keep it until they get to their final destination then I confirm the delete with an e-mail.

[BrianW]

Scary story - I had a virus on a PC which was very persistent but not initially totally destructive, and managed by some fairly convoluted means to recover from it.

Are you PC or Mac? PC I guess as I've never heard of a virus that can do that to a Mac?

How did the virus wipe the drives, overwriting them multiple times or making them inaccessible? Did that include the boot drive?

Did you try means to recover the drives if so what?

What was the name of the virus?

Do you know how the virus was contracted?

Did the virus attempt to communicate anything about it's activities?

It was an extreme case, and not likely to happen to anyone just browsing around... kind of a long (and embarrassing) story how I got there in the first place, but I met someone in an online MMO server-based game who had managed to crack the game's flash client, gained direct access to the server's database and written his own version of the client to automate allot of the game's monotonous details and gather detailed information about other players' locations (in-game, not physical personal info) and resources by directly accessing the server's database. Anyhow, the forum I was on was one that he had told me about, and I was trying to learn some things... well, I learned to leave it alone and stick to sound, lol.

It was nasty, and all the result of clicking on a bad link in that forum, so could have been prevented by not using my main computer in that setting. (or, duh, not being in that setting in the first place)

The first sign of a problem was a splash screen that turned out to be a form of a "recovery virus", modified to attack every mapped/mounted drive. But as I tried to clean up the recovery virus it turned out there was allot more. The original file turned out to be a trojan downloader. I'm not sure what all got installed since I finally gave up and formatted, but it was a huge mess. It did attack the boot drive, but didn't disable it from booting. In the end, it was beyond what i could do to repair, and any drive connected to the computer became infected as long as that drive was still connected. So, when I connected a USB drive to try and copy off some of the files I had recovered in safe mode, the external drive got infected, too... took a while to figure that out. I ended up formatting the main drive and a clean install of Windows, but the new install got infected as soon as I connected the USB drive, even with AVG running. (the initial attack completely broke AVG) I ran multiple scans of all drives with multiple anti-virus software (AVG, Vipre, Trendmicro, Malwarebytes). Each scan would find something different and clean or quarantine it, then when I reboot & re-scan it'd find something again. I spent 2 days just doing this, even running vipre from command prompt only without letting windows boot.

Yes, it did try to communicate over the web, so I kept the network disconnected and used CF cards to install various anti-virus arsenal, downloading the software from a different computer. Oh, and it didn't wipe the drives or actually delete the files, it just moved them around, erased their pointers, hid them, etc., but attempts at recovery always resulted in more problems. I ended up formatting and installing Windows cleanly 3 times before I finally gave up at trying to get anything off the drives.

I finally did pay someone to recover files from one backup drive to a new drive, then formatted everything and started from scratch.

This discussion brings up an interesting legal issue for those of you who keep multiple backups of your production recording files.

The material we record is considered "work for hire" and thus exclusively belongs to the Studio/networks/production company, etc.

Good point, but for myself allot of the work I did in the past was not "work for hire" since it was for bands. Also, if you don't actually sign a document with the words "work for hire" in the document, then it's not "work for hire". For people working on indie projects, this can be significant later. If there's no contract, technically whoever did the recording owns the recording itself - not the composition (i.e., the script / sound source / arrangement, etc), but the files themselves. Which can be an interesting snafu for those indie outfits who don't bother with all the paperwork if they ever do sell their film with the audio you recorded included in the soundtrack.

I don't keep things forever, either, unless it's stuff I own, whether by default or by agreement. In fact, I try to encourage clients who have hired me with a "work for hire" agreement to purchase the CF cards from me or provide me with compatible CF cards so that at the end of the day I just hand them the cards and I'm done with it. As for the legal stuff, I highly (HIGHLY) recommend talking with an intellectual property attorney, at least once, to get all the facts straight. It's very well worth the money in the long run. There's allot of rumors out there accepted to be factually true just because they've been repeated enough times, and it's hard to know what's true / legal from what's not unless you research things from valid sources.

[Richard Lightstone, CAS]

BSW,

I don't know where you did your research. But what is "Work for Hire" in legal terms, goes way beyond your Cliff Notes sense of it.

There is case law and even Supreme Court decisions relating to this topic.

Did you get paid by the band or the indie production to perform your work? Then that would make you an employee and they were the employer and thus they own the work. If you worked as an Independent Contractor, not as you may see it, but how a court of law would define it, then yes, you would have to sign an agreement that the work you recorded was a "work for hire".

However you did not create the band's music, you just recorded it. The same applies to your work as a mixer on an "indie" project. You did not write the screenplay, you only recorded the words spoken by the actors. So you retain no "authorship". A court would consider your efforts as merely a "work for hire" no matter how you were paid.

In a hypothetical situation, let's say a band you recorded went on to be a huge success and you decided to cash in on that and sell their early sessions. You know that they, or their record company will have a team of lawyers claiming ownership and smack you with a law suit in a New York minute.

Under the 1976 Copyright Act as amended (title 17 of the United States Code),

a work is protected by copyright from the time it is created in a fixed form. In

other words, when a work is written down or otherwise set into tangible form,

the copyright immediately becomes the property of the author who created the

work. Only the author or those deriving their rights from the author can rightfully

claim copyright.

Although the general rule is that the person who creates a work is the author

of that work, there is an exception to that principle: the copyright law defines a

category of works called “works made for hire.” If a work is “made for hire,” the

employer, and not the employee, is considered the author. The employer may

be a firm, an organization, or an individual.

To understand the complex concept of a work made for hire, it is necessary

to refer not only to the statutory definition but also to its interpretation in cases

decided by courts.

Whether or not a particular work is made for hire is determined

by the relationship between the parties. This determination

may be difficult, because the statutory definition of a work

made for hire is complex and not always easily applied. That

definition was the focus of a 1989 Supreme Court decision

(Community for Creative Non-Violence v. Reid, 490 U.S. 730

[1989]). The court held that to determine whether a work is

made for hire, one must first ascertain whether the work was

prepared by (1) an employee or (2) an independent contractor.

If a work is created by an employee, part 1 of the statutory

definition applies, and generally the work would be considered

a work made for hire. Important: The term “employee”

here is not really the same as the common understanding

of the term. For copyright purposes, it means an employee

under the general common law of agency. This is explained

in further detail below. Please read about this at “Employer-

Employee Relationship Under Agency Law.”

If a work is created by an independent contractor (that

is, someone who is not an employee under the general

common law of agency), then the work is a specially ordered

or commissioned work, and part 2 of the statutory definition

applies. Such a work can be a work made for hire only if both

of the following conditions are met: (1) it comes within one

of the nine categories of works listed in part 2 of the definition

and (2) there is a written agreement between the parties

specifying that the work is a work made for hire.

http://www.copyright...ircs/circ09.pdf

[BrianW]

In a hypothetical situation, let's say a band you recorded went on to be a huge success and you decided to cash in on that and sell their early sessions. You know that they, or their record company will have a team of lawyers claiming ownership and smack you with a law suit in a New York minute.

Sorry, Richard, I wasn't clear, and I completely agree that the scenario you described will only get someone bankrupt. I actually think we're completely on the same page here, even though it didn't look like it at first.

Going out and selling someone's early sessions (or anything to which anyone else owns any rights) would get you in trouble, but that's not what I intended to suggest. What I was talking about was the flip side, and the recordist doing the pursuing of compensation, not the recordist distributing works. To be clear, I mean the band (in this case) selling a million copies of a song without compensating the rightful owner of the rights to the "sound recording" when they don't clearly own the "sound recording" copyright. (I know you know, but maybe some don't, that there are two separate copyrights to any recorded music... the "composition" and the "sound recording")

As for where I've done my research, the same place you referrence - the copyright.gov site - but I actually had all my contracts put together by an attorney, and got allot of direct answers from him. I've never gone after anyone to dispute ownership rights to anything, and (probably thanks to having clear contracts and disclosure at the front end) neither has anyone ever disputed rights with me. I often entered agreements with bands where I retained the rights to the sound recording so that I could make my money back when they distributed the works rather than full payment up front. Sometimes they later buy the rights from me, sometimes not, but everything was always in writing and up front before any recording was done.

As to who owns the rights to the "sound recording" (not the "composition" or "screenplay", etc., which is somethign different) if there is no agreement, the last bit of your quote is exactly what I'm referring to.

(emphasis added)

"If a work is created by an independent contractor (that is, someone who is not an employee under the general common law of agency), then the work is a specially ordered or commissioned work, and part 2 of the statutory definition applies. Such a work can be a work made for hire only if both of the following conditions are met:

(1) it comes within one of the nine categories of works listed in part 2 of the definition and

(2) there is a written agreement between the parties specifying that the work is a work made for hire

And "part 2 of the definition" from earlier in the document: (emphasis added)

2 a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as a contribution to a

collective work, as a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, as

a translation, as a supplementary work, as a compilation, as an instructional

text, as a test, as answer material for a test, or as an atlas, if the parties

expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall

be considered a work made for hire. For the purpose of the foregoing sentence,

a “supplementary work” is a work prepared for a publication as a secondary

adjunct to a work by another author for the purpose of introducing,

concluding, illustrating, explaining, revising, commenting upon, or assisting

in the use of the other work, such as forewords, afterwords, pictorial illustrations,

maps, charts, tables, editorial notes, musical arrangements, answer

material for tests, bibliographies, appendixes, and indexes; and an “instructional

text” is a literary, pictorial, or graphic work prepared for publication

and intended to be used in systematic instructional activities.

Anyone who wants to push it better know fully well whether he or she is a "contractor" or an "employee" before wasting any money on lawsuits. If you got paid, you're probably an "employee" as far as this all applies, but research it yourself because every case is different for sure.

Seriously, if anyone intends to go after compensation after the fact, or "push the limits" of their rights in such a case, they definitely need to contact an attorney, because nothing we say will matter to their case. Like you suggested, case law in such instances is at least, if not more, important than statute.

Bottom line is, read your contracts carefully, and talk to an attorney if you are worried about who owns what. Without written agreements, everything is cloudy to everyone. With written agreements and clear up-front understandings, things are much clearer.

I really shouldn't have brought any of that other stuff up in this thread, since the only relevance to this topic is whether or how long we should be storing backups of the files we capture. The legality of holding on to copies of the original source files when you are not the rightful owner should definitely be considered, and I would think communicating openly with the production that hired you in each case would probably be the best avenue. Personally, I've backed most everything up "just in case" unless I'm asked to destroy it, except when the client keeps the recording media, in which case I never had it once the card left the recorder. But I certainly can't see keeping it forever. Once the work has been released, is there any point in keeping the originals myself? I can't see why.

Thanks to Richard's insight and suggestion I'm going to reconsider my standard procedure.

[studiomprd]

Let's see...

at the end of the day, I hand over the tapes off the NAGRA, and...

So, today, I'm in agreement with RL, and it is the clients' responsibility, after my delivery, to backup their stuff. after a couple of days, I don't want to be responsible for their stuff.

Others are correct, if it does not exist in multiple, independent places, it does not exist, but unless I'm being paid to be one of those places, I don't want the responsibility.