Delay

[ccsnd]

I think that not knowing how to use and implement something that can drastically change the quality of your mix, leaving it to post to fix, is sloppy work.

[RPSharman]

Just a bit of sarcasm.

I put all my focus toward mic placement and continuity of sound. Those are the elements which I feel are critical. Technical details, I believe, are best left to those with the time (albeit less time than it used to be) and studio tools to best serve the project. They also have the advantage of the picture edit.

[Marc Wielage]

I have to say, you can hear a loss of clarity due to phase cancellation, especially at the high end, when you mix identical microphone types where one is 3ms early than the other. I think this would be a bigger issue if you had a combination of analog wireless and digital wireless on the same shoot, with actors very close together.

On the occasions where I do add a 3ms delay for the boom, I try to put a piece of tape on my machine to remind me I've done it, in case I wind up re-routing or re-patching.

I do remember a conversation I once had about a movie that shot at an ice-skating rink, covered by four or five cameras. We had slates, cameras, and mikes so far apart, different claps were a lot more than 3ms out just because of distance. This rattled the post crew quite a bit. Once I explained it to the assistant editor, they made the judgement call as to whether to slip and slide the individual takes to get them all in sync, relative to each other. Cameras 200' apart will definitely see and hear the set differently, depending on microphone placement.

I had to laugh when I saw the finished film, because 100% of the dialog all got replaced with ADR anyway. (Loud, boomy, noisy ice-skating rink.)

[John Blankenship]

I have to say, you can hear a loss of clarity due to phase cancellation, especially at the high end, when you mix identical microphone types where one is 3ms early than the other. I think this would be a bigger issue if you had a combination of analog wireless and digital wireless on the same shoot, with actors very close together.

On the occasions where I do add a 3ms delay for the boom, I try to put a piece of tape on my machine to remind me I've done it, in case I wind up re-routing or re-patching.

I do remember a conversation I once had about a movie that shot at an ice-skating rink, covered by four or five cameras. We had slates, cameras, and mikes so far apart, different claps were a lot more than 3ms out just because of distance. This rattled the post crew quite a bit. Once I explained it to the assistant editor, they made the judgement call as to whether to slip and slide the individual takes to get them all in sync, relative to each other. Cameras 200' apart will definitely see and hear the set differently, depending on microphone placement.

I had to laugh when I saw the finished film, because 100% of the dialog all got replaced with ADR anyway. (Loud, boomy, noisy ice-skating rink.)

A 200 ft difference is about four frames (at 24fps).

[Marc Wielage]

Yep -- I bet it was at least 3-4 frames for the cameras on the other side of the skating rink (LA Memorial Sports Arena, which is cavernous). Caused no end of confusion if a camera grabbed sync from a slate 10 feet away, then turned and grabbed a shot of a guy 200 feet away who was yelling (to a distant mike).

[jason porter]

I often wonder if a delay should be added when trolling.

I think that not knowing how to use and implement something that can drastically change the quality of your mix, leaving it to post to fix, is sloppy work.

[ccsnd]

I don't see how that is trolling.

If you are paid to be on set mixing, and your mix sucks because you have all sorts of phasing issues because you don't know how to use delay, that is a problem. Again, passing off an issue for post to deal with is sloppy work.

[jason porter]

I guess I misinterpreted your post, perhaps it was your tone or the anonymous profile.

How many of us on JWSound are actual accreditied Audio Engineers?

Apparently, I am just a sloppy "enthusiast."

FWIW, other than to compensate for mixing analogue & digital radios (or mics) I would not commit a track to an effect in the field without serious thought of the consequences for Post.

[ccsnd]

Again, sometimes you cannot have a good mix without using delay. Not using it is just as bad as using it badly, either way it will need to be fixed in post.

[RPSharman]

Again, being distracted by attempting technical adjustments and calculations in the field seems to me to be a formula ripe for disaster. If there is no post, and your mix will go straight from your recorder to grace the silver screen, then by all means take those chances. But for those of us who work with a post team, they rely on me to put the mics in the right place and record clean and balanced tracks, providing a quality mix whenever possible in a chaotic production environment, and I trust them to make adjustments from the ISOs when required, given the more controlled environment of a studio and the benefit of a picture edit.

Now, if I'm delivering something which requires remixing 20% of the time, then perhaps I'm not trying hard enough. But for the very few times that delays, or phasing, or clothing noise, miscues, or background noise, etc., get into the mix tracks, I am confident the post team is happy to help me, in that I have helped them with good tracks the rest of the time.

Delay has existed forever. Recorders with a delay function have not. Post is quite capable of making those adjustments.

Robert

[Jay Rose]

actual accreditied Audio Engineers

Which is what? The NCEES accredits engineers in chemistry, civil, mechanical, and a bunch of other disciplines including "other"... but while the 8 hour exam for "other" includes material engineering, math, computers, physics, thermodynamics, and even the economics of engineering, it doesn't include audio. (A little on dynamics of mechanical moving systems - which I suppose includes speaker cones or even molecules in air - but that's it.)

That's about it for accrediting engineers, except the FCC accredits radio engineers. And I guess there are organizations accrediting train and ship engineers....

This may seem satirical, but there's a real point: what we do* is part technical, part art. I don't want to see anybody accrediting or licensing artists.

* - I refer to the audio engineering in this thread, and on most of this board. Designing audio circuits and DSP would be electrical or computer engineering, and the FE exam could accredit you.

[afewmoreyears]

Again, being distracted by attempting technical adjustments and calculations in the field seems to me to be a formula ripe for disaster. If there is no post, and your mix will go straight from your recorder to grace the silver screen, then by all means take those chances. But for those of us who work with a post team, they rely on me to put the mics in the right place and record clean and balanced tracks, providing a quality mix whenever possible in a chaotic production environment, and I trust them to make adjustments from the ISOs when required, given the more controlled environment of a studio and the benefit of a picture edit.

Now, if I'm delivering something which requires remixing 20% of the time, then perhaps I'm not trying hard enough. But for the very few times that delays, or phasing, or clothing noise, miscues, or background noise, etc., get into the mix tracks, I am confident the post team is happy to help me, in that I have helped them with good tracks the rest of the time.

Delay has existed forever. Recorders with a delay function have not. Post is quite capable of making those adjustments.

Robert

+1

Most of the time with ISOs and a mix track, get your audio, deal with your issues.. (probably quite a few) and let post help out getting it sorted in the end..in the example above with the skating rink, different camera positions, probably moving humans on ice, do you really want to be sitting there making math calculations in a fluid enviornment? I didn't think so... With so much changing, even not on a ice rink, why do that in the field.. Just because you can take a stab at it does not mean you should... If your wise enough to properly calculate the delay, always.... my hats off to you, but to say someone is a poor mixer for not going that route is both foolish and insulting to those that don't share the thought.

I have been at this for a couple years and never heard a complaint from post relating to issues with a boom and radio or any other delay related issues.. ever... In the course of any show, I would doubt the whole thing will have this issue, so, for the few occasions where it may need some input from post, let them do some work to fix only what is needed... really not a big deal... Is it a pain in their ass, maybe, but so are the 500 things we deal with on set.... spread the crap....

The only thing I delay is the send to the peanut gallery.... every once in a while I will do that just to help out VTR..

[David Waelder]

In the Cantar, it's possible to dial in the delay while monitoring two signals so one can hear when there's a match.

From page 16 of the manual:

Delays inherent to sound propagation (3 ms/m) or induced by

signal processing (up to 3.8 ms in a digital wireless kit) can

induce 'phasing' interference between mics placed at different

distances (or time) from a sound source. In some instances

it is advisable that all audio inputs contributing to the onboard

mixdown wait in a buffer for the 'late-sound' arrival. In TEST,

press [shift] [silver] to open LVL&DELAY, [jog] from 03 'mic1

delay' to 11 'line4'; press [ok] on the one to set, [jog] from

0.0 to 85.0 ms delay in 0.1 ms

increments i.e 5 audio samples

(1 ms increments by [shift] [jog]).

Fine tune the delay by listening to

the tracks in 'double-solo' (see Soloing tracks, p.22). An ear

protecting mute is applied during delay modifications.

This permits a quick A-B listening alignment so one doesn't have to make calculations in the field. Perhaps other recorders offer this feature. If not, they should consider implementing it; it's certainly possible if Cantar can do it.

David

[ccsnd]

do you really want to be sitting there making math calculations in a fluid enviornment? I didn't think so...

Again, It is VERY simple division

I have been at this for a couple years and never heard a complaint from post relating to issues with a boom and radio or any other delay related issues.. ever... In the course of any show, I would doubt the whole thing will have this issue, so, for the few occasions where it may need some input from post, let them do some work to fix only what is needed... really not a big deal... Is it a pain in their ass, maybe, but so are the 500 things we deal with on set.... spread the crap....

how many projects have you been on with very little turn around time? They don't have time to do all that. You are paid to mix. You sometimes CANNOT have a good mix without using delay.

[afewmoreyears]

Again, It is VERY simple division

IF things remain constant.... Thats the key... consistancy... What good is doing math when things are in flux... there go your calculations...

how many projects have you been on with very little turn around time? They don't have time to do all that. You are paid to mix. You sometimes CANNOT have a good mix without using delay.

Don't worry or guess at exactly what I am paid for... More often than not these days we are paid to record ... we provide them with a nice working mix, and ISOs..... I don't do much quick turn around stuff, I don't do fast low budget gigs, so I leave the post work to the nice folks in post...

Whatever floats your boat... But your blanket analysis that we all should do it because the math is easy is flawed, and potentially causing them MORE work to correct something that may not of been a problem in the first place.. How will that fly in your cramped post schedule...

[ccsnd]

Whatever floats your boat... But your blanket analysis that we all should do it because the math is easy is flawed, and potentially causing them MORE work to correct something that may not of been a problem in the first place.. How will that fly in your cramped post schedule...

Wrong.

There is either a delay or there isn't. Its not any more or less work. Its the same. It is either better or equal.

If there wasn't a problem in the first place, then why would you try to add delay?

[ccsnd]

You guys make it sound like calculating delay is some sort of crazy calculus equation. Its only distance / 1128 (you could use 1100, its not a big enough difference).

You could also o it by ear if division is not your thing...

[jason porter]

It isn't the math that is the issue...

You guys make it sound like calculating delay is some sort of crazy calculus equation. Its only distance / 1128 (you could use 1100, its not a big enough difference).

You could also o it by ear if division is not your thing...

[afewmoreyears]

Jason, he does not get that point...

TSG, If you want to attack your situation by adding delay, have fun, I am only saying that those who do not are in no way inferior.. It's just a difference in game plan... You could also argue EQ, recording ISOs , stereo mix or any other number of ways to attack a situation while pulling a mix, some people do it some people don't... SO many ways to kill the cat... Is use (heavy) of EQ best done on set, or later in post... similar argument... do they have time? who knows, should we try to arrive at a later down the road sounding audio while we pull the mix? some would say yes, some may say no...

So many people, so many ways... so much gear and so many end users.... what is "right".... Your way?... No, it's just another way....

Peace....out..... Take care TSG....

[ccsnd]

Jason, he does not get that point...

no, I do.

You could also argue EQ, recording ISOs

And I will! - Both are a must. EQ is a very important part of the mix track. If they don't like my eq, they can change it or go to isos

stereo mix or any other number of ways to attack a situation while pulling a mix, some people do it some people don't...

Dialog is mono. just because your recorder has two channels to record to, does not mean you are recording stereo. You are recording 2 channels.

Is use (heavy) of EQ best done on set, or later in post...

If for whatever reason I need to hide a lav under a bunch of clothes and I need to EQ it to make the mix sound right, you bet I put it in. Again, I'm paid to mix. Part of mixing is equalization.

who knows, should we try to arrive at a later down the road sounding audio while we pull the mix? some would say yes, some may say no

Most would say yes

So many people, so many ways... so much gear and so many end users.... what is "right".... Your way?... No, it's just another way....

Some ways get more repeat clients

Peace....out..... Take care TSG....

Be safe My friend

[afewmoreyears]

"And I will! - Both are a must. EQ is a very important part of the mix track. If they don't like my eq, they can change it or go to isos"

My point exactly.... Same as delay, But those kind folks in post will have to do it....

Thanks for clearing up some of that stuff like EQ and what stereo is.... I had been wondering about that.... So, I should be EQing my mix?... Glad that was cleared up too...

Funny stuff...

[studiomprd]

" Some ways get more repeat clients "

and some of us may have higher opinions of ourselves and our work than the folks hiring us...

[John Blankenship]

So, let me ask oh great and wise TSG who has all the absolute, definitive answers as to what makes a true professional sound mixer rather than a sloppy enthusiast, what is the proper way to delay this scenario?:

Two people, each boom miced and PERSON1 is about 10 feet from PERSON2, but PERSON2 is a lot louder than PERSON1 who speaks quite softly during all of their overlapping lines, so there is a great deal of PERSON2's dialog being received in PERSON1's mic. So, for a mono mix track, where do I introduce your mandatory 9ms delay that will solve this dilemma (since it's only simple math)?

[ccsnd]

The quieter person would get delayed, or split the difference. Might take some tweaking and adjusting. as long as it's close enough to get rid of the annoying part of the phasing. The high frequencies will be effected first, so as long as you can get enough "spectral headroom" above the frequencies of the dialog, you're good.

Not really a math question.

[RPSharman]

Uhhhhhhh.... Clearly we are all inferior.

Perhaps if we knew who thesoundguy is, or the body if his work, we could better evaluate his advice.

I know that the guys at Soundelux and WB Sound and ToddAO prefer a pretty flat EQ so that if they have to go to the ISOs, they don't have to magically recreate the EQ applied on set for the rest of the scene. I guess it depends if EQ is applied pre or post fader, etc. Their idea of good EQ might differ from the PSM, and since they're last in the chain, guess what...

I don't know their opinion on delay, but I'd guess it's the same as EQ. They've never mentioned anything to me, and I ALWAYS call the supervising sound editor during post to ask if there's anything I can do to improve the tracks I am delivering. I've done quite a few shows with lots of action and cameras and lavs and booms deployed, so I'd imagine there were some delay "issues" that had to be addressed after picture lock.

Robert