44 replies to this topic

[Jeff Wexler]

It has been reported to me that a sales transaction originating from this site has gone very badly for one of our members purchasing a used item offered up for sale by another member. I am not going to go into the details. This post should serve as a warning, once again, that our membership should be very cautious when considering a purchase of anything offered on this site. I am very close to shutting down the whole section but I would rather like to keep it going since there are many established and trusted members who have made very good use of the section.

[taylormadeaudio]

Sorry to hear that Jeff,

I hope you don't shut the whole section down. There is always a risk with transactions of this nature, but in the case of the JWSound Forum and this particular section, I think the good far outweighs the bad. People just need to be cautious, like you said. I don't know the details of the aforementioned transaction (don't want to) but buyer beware, right? Please don't shut the section down.

~tt

[Tom Maloney]

Just a thought about this , maybe people should supply phone numbers to talk to each other
I have made several good purchases from this site, never been burned
Sellers have gone all out to me to answer questions and have offered to have me call them for more information
Hope you don't take it down Jeff
I understand if you do, but to me it is a great resource

Thanks
Tom Maloney
Chicago

PS really enjoyed We Bought A Zoo

[MT Groove]

Jeff, for every bad transaction occurring here there are hundreds of good ones. I have made many successful buy/sell transactions that originated from this forum and never had an issue. Buyers/sellers need to know who they're dealing with before making any transaction.

Jeff, if you shut down the WTB/WTS section, you will be taking away part of what makes this Forum so great. I suggest maybe implementing restrictions on posting on the WTB/WTS forum based on the amount of time a member has been here, and or post count. Just my $.02.

[studiomprd]

another thought is restricting "posting for a friend".members are accountable,
and maybe keeping the info confidential is not such a good idea, either ..??

[RadoStefanov]

I posted for a friend but I processed the transactions and take full responsibility for everything people got from me.
I agree senator. Confidentiality is not such a good idea.

another thought is restricting "posting for a friend".members are accountable,
and maybe keeping the info confidential is not such a good idea, either ..??

[ProSound]

I have done much selling and buying on this site 90 percent of the time it has been a well established member. The few times it wasn't I was able to verify that they were a real person and sound mixer via other sources. I won't shut down the section down just use common sense

[Tom Visser]

Perhaps we can limit the classifieds section to an invite only or for members with X number of posts prior to gaining access?

[AudioMTL]

I am new to the forums and have been very active with purchasing things I need for my kit at good value. +1 from me for keeping it running. It is a very important resource for me during the growth of my career since I am unable to afford to buy new at this time for many items! Thanks !

[Toy Robot]

Perhaps we can limit the classifieds section to an invite only or for members with X number of posts prior to gaining access?

Is post count enough? What if someone just posts a bunch of +1s around the site and then their post count is high based on non-informational posts? I'm not trying to be a bummer, but I think a lot of this is just being here to witness months and years of conversations. There are many members on here, for example that I would not hesitate to buy something from based on me reading their posts for ages. But there are others that I wouldn't purchase anything from at all.

I think Whitney has the right idea. Be on the lookout for people you know from the site, and if you don't know them, either verify with another sound mixer you do know is legit, or don't buy.

Another option is to only buy high-priced items on eBay with private listings. That means that the member can post a private listing link here or can send you the link via email upon request, and the transaction happens on eBay, away from JWSound completely. My understanding (you must verify this) is that all private listings on eBay are still covered by Buyer Protection services, meaning it is much safer than simply sending someone a check. You can also check out the seller's eBay history and even pay with PayPal, which has it's own Buyer Protection policy (see section 13).

At least if you do that, you have some form of recourse. Maybe. Sometimes.

Best of luck to all.

[ProSound]

Ebay and Paypal are worthless for protecting buyers. I hate both of them which is why I prefer to sell on this site

[MatthewFreedAudio]

I'm all for common sense. There are also very inexpensive escrow options if you are buying a big ticket item and that helps protect both buyer and seller.

[RadoStefanov]

I don't see how it is the forum's fault. Everybody who wants to sell or buy should do their research.

Sent from my HD7 T9292 using Board Express

[RPSharman]

Ebay and Paypal are worthless for protecting buyers. I hate both of them which is why I prefer to sell on this site

Not to mention the fees!

[atheisticmystic]

... I am very close to shutting down the whole section but I would rather like to keep it going since there are many established and trusted members who have made very good use of the section.

I recently made a sell via the forum to a rather new member (even newer than myself!), made my own "discerning" assessment based on all the things they posted. Purchase happened after a phone call however, and the sale went flawlessly and quick.

We all have to make our own decisions and be accountable. Once we've "established" ourselves here, our reputation is on the line.

I like that other members jump in and post "vouchers" for others on that section, it helps a lot.
And I can now vouch for Jesse!

Keep us accountable Jeff by keeping the section open!

[Jeff Wexler]

ANNOUNCEMENT: I will not be taking down the Want To Buy - Want To Sell section, it is obviously an important part of this site and when used properly provides a vital service. I think if we are all careful and disciplined when using the Buy - Sell section it can continue to have a life without a lot of trouble --- that would be the hope.

[Eric Toline]

Good. No sense in shooting the messenger.

Eric

[cwsound]

Not sure if this forum can run the plug in but on the p8ntballer website it had a feedback section on user profiles so people could see if there where good sellers or not.

Here was mine http://p8ntballer-fo...cerberus.12174/

[LarryF]

"Want To Buy - Want To Sell" doesn't cheat people. People cheat people.
Best,
Larry F

Good. No sense in shooting the messenger.

Eric

[OmahaAudio]

Ebay and Paypal are worthless for protecting buyers. I hate both of them which is why I prefer to sell on this site

Ditto on this. Their claimed protection is essentially worthless.

[Toy Robot]

Ebay and Paypal are worthless for protecting buyers. I hate both of them which is why I prefer to sell on this site

That is sad to hear. I have never had to use their 'protection', which is good because apparently it doesn't work. So I would say again that I think Whitney has the right idea. Check up on who you're buying from.

[geordi]

Ditto on this. Their claimed protection is essentially worthless.

X3 - they also do not care if a seller is the victim of a scammer. They will demand "proof" of a shipment, then arbitrarily decide to refund the scammer who claims "item not received." Then they have the gall to demand that the seller reimburse THEM, when it was their decision to ignore the shipment proof.You can NEVER talk to a real human being, they treasure their anonymity. I have been the victim of a scammer on eBay / PayPal 4 times in over 200 transactions. 3 were as a buyer, once as a seller (where eBay is now demanding reimbursement that they will never see or compel from me). The buyer ones... 2 were a low value that eBay graciously "decided" in my favor and refunded me. The high value one? eBay / PayPal told me that "the seller provided proof of shipment, best of luck to you in the future" with the expectation that I would just eat it.Sucks for them... I NEVER use PayPal without running it through my credit card. VISA wasn't impressed with them, and promptly refunded me and told PAYPAL to suck it.As far as the WTB/FS section here... I have had several smooth transactions with long term members here, and am in process of one right now. I hope to have many more. I look at this site as trading gear amongst like-minded friends... Who will deal with a scammer with all due haste and vitriol. We protect our own. Thanks for not taking the section down.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[old school]

"Want To Buy - Want To Sell" doesn't cheat people. People cheat people.
Best,
Larry F

Buyer beware they say. My 2 experiences were positive, but I knew the 2 by reputation and expected as much. I like the wtb/wts section. I'm always looking.
CrewC

[engaudio]

I recently brought an item from a newish member from overseas, it was easy enough to do a google/imdb search and find out his home address/phone/ professional credentials etc. Sure it didn't mean I wasn't going to be a victim of a scam but it eased my mind.. Anyway, turned out I knew some friends that had worked with him so felt safe.

Grant.


(null)

[John Blankenship]

+1 for what Larry said.

I also agree this is a worthwhile section of the forum. All new members should be made clearly aware that any transactions are at their own risk. That would be further mitigated if members had to be participants here for a reasonable time before they could list anything for sale.

As far as PayPal/eBay, I've had some reasonable help from them a couple of times. HOWEVER, I make it a point to use a credit card so I have the CC company behind the purchase, too.

[Jesper Magnusson]

You should always be careful when buying used, and it's a good thing to establish contact by phone. I buy a lot of things on the used market (actually, I rarely buy things new), and while I've had a few bad experiences, there have been countless good ones. Of course, I usually don't deal with the amount of money that may be at risk on this forum.

In Sweden, we have an internet service that for a fee supply an account for people buying used, and there might be something similar in other parts of the world. The buyer sends the money, and the seller gets a confirmation when it's in the account. Then the package is sent, and after it have been recieved and checked by the buyer, he/she alone can give the order to forward the money from the account to the seller. If either of these steps fail or one side feel tricked, no item is sent, or the money stays in the account until the matter is solved.

A simpler, cheaper way that I've used several times with good results is to simply send half the amount first, and the rest after the item has been picked up and checked. That way both sides takes an equal amount of risk.

[deucebigalow4]

That is sad to hear. I have never had to use their 'protection', which is good because apparently it doesn't work. So I would say again that I think Whitney has the right idea. Check up on who you're buying from.

Actually, I've had success with buyer protection in the past on 2 laptops that had bad USB3 ports. Filed a claim and got a full refund when the seller refused upon return of the items. Paypal's fee schedule is quite ridiculous, though.

[Marc Wielage]

That totally sucks, Jeff. What I always do is try to handle all the transactions locally, and I give the buyer exactly the same deal I do on eBay: a 7-day unconditional money-back guarantee (if the item isn't exactly as described), and I work it out if there's any questions or issues. Buyer pays all shipping and customs fees, and there are certain countries I'm reluctant to ship to. But it's hard to make a rule that says, "everybody has to be reasonable and treat each other like human beings."

I've never in my life had a problem on either end with an audio sale, but I once had a laptop computer deal go bad. I sold an old laptop to a foreign guy in Canada, and he went ballistic with me because the internal DVD-ROM drive could not read his home-made CD-R's (!!!). He admitted that the drive read legitimate pressed CDs and DVDs with no problem, but he couldn't understand or accept my explanation that recordable discs can be flakey. Even in that case, we worked it out just with me shipping him a new $50 drive. On a $1000 laptop sale, it was worth losing $50 to calm the jerk down.

Maybe Jeff can just make some short rules: the site isn't liable for any deals, buyers are advised to pay only with PayPal, insure and track all shipments, and try to work out any disputes on the phone. Things seem to escalate in email for some people.

[Wandering Ear]

+1 to Larrys comment.

I am also happy that you decided to keep this section up.

I don't think it's Jeffs or Jwsounds responsibility to police/rule/limit the transactions. It's not the intention of the site, and puts a huge unneccessary burden on our admin. This is merely a discussion forum for people to connect with one another, we still need to look out for ourselves and the people we interact with.

Just my opinion.

Wandering Ear

[soundmanjohn]

I'd just like to add that the new-ish chap Derryck from Norlins who posted his 702 here, which I bought, is a gentleman and a scholar, as honest as the day is long, and all the other plaudits that one gives to a long-distance seller when things go flawlessly. He's delivered exactly what he said he would deliver to my associate in New York, in good time and with excellent communications. I'm very happy. He's also about to get married, so I hope he's happy too!

Regards,

John

[bleublancrouge]

i vote to keep the site.

if there's any doubt about a seller, it's easy enough to just ask the jwsound group if they know and can vouch for them. it's only one part of the vetting someone should do when purchasing.

i've only had good results because i've always done my homework. knock on wood.

P.

[benr]

Gotta keep it, its as imprtant as the rest of the site IMO as its not just anywhere you can go to sell this kind of gear in a place where people know what it is and what its worth.

Maybe just make sure a disclaimer is agreed to before anyones first listing or when they join stating that JWSOUND assumes no resonsibility for transactions in the Classifieds section and members use it at their own risk. Also, I have always liked when forums use post counts before they allow a member into a section or to post, but then that of course wont always work either.

[johngooch]

another thought is restricting "posting for a friend".members are accountable,
and maybe keeping the info confidential is not such a good idea, either ..??

Keep it. I agree with the senators ideas- no "posting for a friend" and each member be accountable.

[Brandon Pert]

Glad the section will still be around. I've made some pretty large purchases through the section like my fusion 10, and mix-8. Just use common sense. Look the person up on the web and call their contact numbers from a reliable source. Than you can prevent a scammer masquerading as a sound mixer. I highly doubt any sound mixer would rip another one off. We are pretty tightly knit community aren't we?

[RadoStefanov]

Glad the section will still be around.

+1
I sold $4000 in gear in April and May to help a friend go trough some tough times.
IMHO JWSOUND is safer then EBAY if you sell to KNOWN people.

[Toy Robot]

I've had two very positive transactions that originated on this site in the last two months. Both were known users with many posts, and I'm extremely happy with my purchases and the professionalism of the sellers.

Just know who you're dealing with.

[RadoStefanov]

I've had two very positive transactions that originated on this site in the last two months. Both were known users with many posts, and I'm extremely happy with my purchases and the professionalism of the sellers.

Just know who you're dealing with.

+1

[Jaymz]

There is probably a way to adjust the built in rep system on the forums to only function in that section. It would essentially be like an ebay "top seller" or "trusted" seal.

[geordi]

I've had two very positive transactions that originated on this site in the last two months. Both were known users with many posts, and I'm extremely happy with my purchases and the professionalism of the sellers.

Just know who you're dealing with.

Likewise - 2 transactions in the last month, and 6 overall... All with long-time members and I'm very happy with all of them. The active members here are MUCH safer to do business with than anyone on Fleabay.

[wolfvid]

PayPal gives you NO protection as buyer. as seller it does only after the money is in your bank account ( too slow).
Use Credit card to pay for stuff and you have good protection and accept credit cards because you can show the CrCard Co. that you are honest ( can be tough when dealing with a crook at the other end).
do not do cr Card interactions internationally AT ALL !!!
there is a swiper available for the Ipone they take 2.75 % of each transaction.
its called square https://squareup.com/
i have no experience with that service. I bet there is a future in that kind of stuff, esp. when we hit serious inflation rates.
w

[AndyB]

I've noticed that indie bands are making use of the iphone swiper and app. I think its an awesome way to do business for a struggling band, and it alleviates the worries of carrying around a bunch of cash from CD and merch sales at gigs.

[geordi]

I use SquareUp for my rentals - The fee isn't bad at all compared to "traditional" Telxon-based systems, because there is NO monthly just-because-we-can fee if you aren't using it. Unlike with Paypal, there also isn't a 39 cent per transaction fee PLUS the percentage, and you don't need to wait 4-5 days for an ACH transaction to be credited to your bank account.

With SquareUp, I only pay when I use it. I pass the fee along to my customers who have all been very accepting (ok, none have complained, just kinda shrugged it off) and they automatically initiate a deposit to my account each and every night that I have had any transactions that day. So I get my money in about 36 hours from the rental, with no extra steps.
The system also sends a location-tagged receipt right away to either an email address OR a text to a cellphone, and should I need them, I can generate new receipts from the website for any previous transaction.

A great system - And if you aren't having any business through it... You don't pay anything.

[Omar Milano]

I'm getting ready to sell some of my gear and I would like to use this great resource, but I have never conducted a transaction before. I noticed that people post the price of the item(s), and I assume that final price and method of payment is discussed or negotiated via PM, e-mail, or even a phone call.

What is the proper procedure to follow that most of you have used to complete a successful transaction?

I feel that if I come to an agreement with an interested party in terms of price, he/she should submit payment via PayPal or check, wait until the payment clears, and I would expeditiously ship the equipment (insured, of course).

Is this fair to expect?

Thanks!

[studiomprd]

" proper procedure to follow "
reread the thread for good advice, and of course good horse sense!

[Victor The Mixer]

Please don't shut it down, I think its a great resource. Use common sense, verify with some net research and grab a phone number and drop a call or skype the potential seller. Please don't let a few bad apples ruin for this great batch of mixers.