Rates of pay

[Jeff Wexler]

I know this is a sensitive issue for some but a good friend of mine who is presently doing documentary-style work with the Cousteau group needs some guidlines on what mixers are getting paid and what the basic equipment package is going for. My friend had to retire from the regular union boomwork he had done for over 15 years (due to back injuries and a double hip replacement) but has now returned to do some mixing jobs without benefit of a union contract scale wage. The work, however, is what Gary loves to do, explorations, oceanographic adventures and so forth.

If anyone here could put forth some numbers it would be greatly appreciated. Maybe just a range of pay per day that is typical and some indication of what equipment rents for (typical bag setup with SD 442, 744T, Lectro wireless, etc.).

Thanks in advance for helping out.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[Philip Perkins]

I know this is a sensitive issue for some but a good friend of mine who is presently doing documentary-style work with the Cousteau group needs some guidlines on what mixers are getting paid and what the basic equipment package is going for. My friend had to retire from the regular union boomwork he had done for over 15 years (due to back injuries and a double hip replacement) but has now returned to do some mixing jobs without benefit of a union contract scale wage. The work, however, is what Gary loves to do, explorations, oceanographic adventures and so forth.

If anyone here could put forth some numbers it would be greatly appreciated. Maybe just a range of pay per day that is typical and some indication of what equipment rents for (typical bag setup with SD 442, 744T, Lectro wireless, etc.).

Thanks in advance for helping out.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

On an overseas doc he'd be lucky to get $6-700 day, all in (labor+gear).  Travel days, if there are a lot of them are always a negotiation, as are "off " days on location.  Doc days are very long, and overtime is usually not factored in per se.  Make sure there is an understanding about loss and damage to his gear, and especially about what the procedure will be if he is injured or becomes seriosly ill while overseas. (ie medivac insurance etc).

Philip Perkins

[FSBELLA]

JW,

the following are the daily rental rates in los angeles for the items that your friend is using:

1-SD 442 MIXER = $50.00

2-BETA BREAK AWAY SNAKE = $10.00

3-SD 744T = $90.00

4- TC SLATE? = $50.00

5-LECTRO 411 SYSTEM W/LAVS (EA.) = $75.00

just like scott mentioned, if gary can get $350-450 for gear, that should be cool,

and production should be fine with that as well.

[Eric Burge]

---I know this is a sensitive issue for some---

Why is it a sensitive issue? IMO, the more we each know about who is charging what for what type of work with what type of equipment the better. Without the enforcement of union scale nor any benefits in most of the non-fiction market, I'd think it's only advantageous for us to want to communicate regarding such matters as $. The more we are able to band together and hold the line regarding fee structures, the less likely any of us is to get screwed.

---My friend had to retire from the regular union boomwork he had done for over 15 years (due to back injuries and a double hip replacement)---

I was starting to think I was getting too old and beat up to continue doing doc work! Long days, heavy kit, always moving. How in the world is your friend pulling this off, Jeff?

I'm operating in close to the same ballpark as Scott posted (maybe since we run almost identical doc kits???) For most overseas doc work I expect to get around $500-$600/day, kit inclusive, $300 travel, $40-50/day per diem. And as for overtime on a foreign doc? I only wish...

Most doc/educational producers I know want a flat day rate including full kit (enough for the specific job). Maybe it's because they don't want to be surprised if the setup changes, days go long, or if shit goes south and you're digging deep into the box for whatever hero fix. <ching, ching> It's probably smart of them to ask for a flat rate bid, but it also can lead to bad crew morale if the days become ridiculously long. As for OT, I usually emphasize that I consider myself to be a team player and if the entire crew occasionally gets thrashed and we're all on a flat I'll grin and cope...assuming that we'll also have some really short days with full pay. But if I end up as the only one spending late nights soldering adapters or reconfiguring or whatever only because the director changed his/her mind midstream...and it's happened more than I care to think...then we'll be talking more about OT.

On most domestic "reality style" doc style shows where I'm the only sound guy, it's not uncommon for me to quote a standard rate for say 3 wireless mics, boom, 4 Ch mixer, snake...and then find only after I've arrived on location that the field producer now wants 5 or 6 wireless, rf link, 2-cam feed, smartslate, etc. OTOH, I love it when that happens as if they really want the additional gear (and most times they do if it's physically present at the site) it's going to cost them same as rental house rates, around $85/day per wireless system, $50 for a slate, and so on. I emphasize how much they're saving with no FEdEx being required, and if they change their mind tomorrow and we don't use it I won't charge for it. Yeah, right. I've yet to see a downsizing after production starts. Of course those are the good gigs. I also see my share of the cheap-ass producers who want the whole kitchen for toilet prices. I give them the old "good-fast-cheap...pick any 2" speech.

I find it interesting that this topic came up for discussion at this time (including L&D expenses, med-evac, etc. as mentioned my Phil). This may be slightly off topic, but I'm quite possibly about to engage in a legal battle with a production that just recently abused my good will in a major way. Had I actually signed their deal memo as it was written I would have been screwed, but the job came up on such a short notice that the AP never got around to giving me the paperwork until after we wrapped. Bad move on her part, blessing for me, but I wouldn't have signed that particular contract anyway. It was a joke in that it endeavored to completely shield the production company from all liability for personal injury, gear loss or damage, property claims, etc., along with all the expected "work for hire" stuff, copyright assignment, etc.

Even before the start of this show, I independently decided to back up everything on my 744T since the production was to be fast paced with rf sends to only 1 of 4 cams. (go figure) I was told that it wasn't necessary to record double system as it would not be used anyway, and I would not receive any additional rental for it. I even offfered to mount a quality mic with a softie on another camera for just in case, but it was also refused. Of course I know better than to put all the eggs in one basket especially when working with an unfamiliar crew, 6 untested freqs and in an unknown rf climate at that, which I wasn't afforded time nor compensation to scout prior to rolling.

I'm still amazed at how clueless so many producer types are when it comes to radio use (overuse?) and their discounting the need for freq coordination and system checks!

Unfortunately my 744T was adversly affected by snow melt during the course of this job due to serious blizzard conditions (a good topic for another thread). So significant was the damage that it incurred a repair bill of over $500! Thanks to the kind folks at SD I wasn't charged anything near that, but the point should be clear. It was pretty hammered. I retrieved all the files before sending it in and I wasn't planning to charge production a cent of the repair since I had made the call on my own to bring it to the job. Let me repeat that I wasn't getting any rental for it either.

Anyway, I guess the camera op wasn't paying as much attention to his headphones as he implied for as soon as the job got to post they asked me to send "all audio" from my backup drive. When I replied to this email request and asked that someone from post call me directly to discuss the specifics, I received another email, this one blaming me for the missing s.o.p. and slandering my competence (I'm being too kind here).

Prompt payment of my initial invoice had already been postponed and they were still insisting that I send all the audio files. That was the straw for me. I wrote them a pretty strong letter reminding them that since no written agreement was in place nor had I received any "good and valuable consideration" for my services that I own all rights to the material and refuse to allow its use until all matters are resolved. I redrafted and sent the new invoice ($1200 more than the original to cover the rental, repair, time to burn files, etc.) and said that as soon as they pay me I'd be happy to discuss copyright issues and forward the discs.

That was 2 days ago and I haven't heard back. I imagine they're still in pow wow with their legal department...

OK, done. Enough ranting...

The whole point to even mentioning the above ordeal (beyond my need to vent) is that this freelance (non-union) pay rate, contract thing can be a bitch sometimes, not to mention the actual collecting of funds in any timely fashion. Usually all goes well, but every now and then I'll work a job for someone I don't know and wind up regretting it. I am getting better about negotiating more solid terms at the front, getting tighter with my paper trails, saving original recordings, and trying to assure that all is clear BEFORE the job ever happens. But sometimes no matter how much nor how little prep is involved, it just doesn't go as smoothly as hoped. Maybe things will change in time, but my patience grows shorter as my list of untrustworthy clients grows longer.

Phil also mentioned considering the potential costs for medical evacuation. I don't know about anyone else out there, but I've been carrying DAN (Divers Alert Network) insurance for years in addition to my global gear coverage. It covers me for a bunch of important travel related stuff including full air med-evac to an adequately equipped "quality" medical facility from anywhere in the world more than 50 miles from home. The cause of injury does not have to be dive related adn you don't have to be a diver to sign up. It is incredibly cheap for such peace of mind and DAN is a very good organization aside from this and worth supporting.

EB

[Jeff Wexler]

Wow, Eric, what a story (still ongoing I guess). The lessons to be learned here from you are extensive and go way beyond just trying to cover your ass. Aside from your specific difficulties regarding who owns a backup and so forth, I am struck by the overall problem of producers and production types having so much power over our work through their manipulation of the equipment package. I wish we could go back to the times when they used to hire us because they had faith that we knew how to do the job properly and the specifying of necessary equipment and workflow procedures were in OUR hands instead of theirs.

Thank you for sharing these events and sorry you have had to go through all of that.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[FSBELLA]

Eric,

damn man, hold out on those audio files big time until you are paid in full.

I remember the gig you did in the snowy mountains of utah?? a couple yrs ago snow boarding or skiers?when the job just kept getting bigger and bigger evryday (more rf mics and ifb rec for "producers") and you were the sound team. we talked about that one in the rental dept. for awhile. anyway, keep on doing what you do and have fun in montana.

later fs

[Eric Burge]

Wow, Eric, what a story (still ongoing I guess). The lessons to be learned here from you are extensive and go way beyond just trying to cover your ass. Aside from your specific difficulties regarding who owns a backup and so forth, I am struck by the overall problem of producers and production types having so much power over our work through their manipulation of the equipment package. I wish we could go back to the times when they used to hire us because they had faith that we knew how to do the job properly and the specifying of necessary equipment and workflow procedures were in OUR hands instead of theirs.

Thank you for sharing these events and sorry you have had to go through all of that.

Regards, Jeff Wexler

Yes, Jeff, this mess is still in flux. It's nice to have a platform to discuss this type of stuff with other folks who know and care, and could also find themselves in a similar conflict. It's not that my friends or family don't care, but they don't [really] know what we do as location sound mixers. I concur with your comments regarding new trends toward producer manipulation. It's not everywhere, but it's rampant nevertheless. It makes me laugh when I see folks getting upset over RAMPS politics. I only wish that were my biggest problem.

As a freelance photographer, I used to deal with copyright regularly and I've always been amazed at how much film/TV people are willing to surrender [even before the fact] for a full day of creative work. Without more than one or two standout exceptions, every production contract that I've been asked to sign [for freelance or subcontract services] has read in overwhelming favor for the producer. It's to be expected that most any party would draw up an agreement favoring their position, but some of the deals I've seen are no less than pathetic in their manipulation and one-sidedness. We are always required to sign their paperwork, but when was the last time they signed anything of ours? How did it come to be that they had us over a barrel rather than extending a level of mutual trust and respect? I suspect it ultimately has to do with supply and demand, "no worries, we'll find a sound guy out there willing to work for crafts leftovers...", and unfortunately they too often will.

We also are considered "technicians" in the film biz rather than "artists", who tend to command more respect and often retain their copyright, leasing those rights rather than selling out completely in "work for hire" agreements. I guess the prestigious label "artist" is reserved only for the "creatives" working above the line. Who is kidding whom?!?!

My first film industry work was as a safety rigger for features and commercials. Looking back, boy, did we have it good. Most of us took for granted the respect we received for keeping the crew and cast alive and safe. Yet 15 years later I find myself working in a field that I find more technically challenging and yet too often feel treated as if my line were an afterthought, a necessary inconvenience and somehow less important part of the process.

Well, I've about had it with pimple-face "producers" telling me how to do my job...especially when they have no clue.

EB

[Jeff Wexler]

Yes, Jeff, this mess is still in flux. It's nice to have a platform to discuss this type of stuff with other folks who know and care, and could also find themselves in a similar conflict.

This is one of the prime reasons I have for this forum. Sharing working experiences, and not just practical experience with the "tools of our trade," is so important. All too often we forget that the other vital things we need to have "in our kit" are the people skills so necessary for survival in the workplace. By "people skills" I mean all the undersrtanding of the relationships amongst the people we work with, the producers who hire us and hopefully pay us --- all those things that require real working experience, often difficult and painful, to protect ourselves and be confident that we can perform truly creative, artistic and professional service.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler 

[Eric Burge]

Eric,

damn man, hold out on those audio files big time until you are paid in full.

I remember the gig you did in the snowy mountains of utah?? a couple yrs ago snow boarding or skiers?when the job just kept getting bigger and bigger evryday (more rf mics and ifb rec for "producers") and you were the sound team. we talked about that one in the rental dept. for awhile. anyway, keep on doing what you do and have fun in montana.

later fs

OMG, that Utah job is still vivid in my mind...went 42 hours with no sleep at one point...Argh! What it needed was at least 3 (if not more) good sound guys. Boy, did I get suckered on that one. (Made some big $ though ) This other runs a close second as all time memorable epics of my sound career. Consider the Utah complexity minus 1 channel and the IFBs...and then stuff it all on my chest and expect me to outski the local kids on the steeps of Jackson Hole! Oh yeah, all on tele-skis with no poles...! Yeah, right. At least the Utah projects were kind of cart based. What lurks in the murky channels of the producer mind? I'm scared to speculate.

In retrospect, I'm as much to blame for even attempting to pull off such challenges. If these idiots are shown it to be possible, they'll quite likely expect it on a regular basis. Both of these jobs were riddled with bait and switch tactics. The biggest reason I didn't tell them to F&@K off on either occasion is that I was heavily leveraged on both. The Utah job found me up to my gills in rental gear and this last one, although using all my own kit, started off with me springing for a one-way flight back from FL where I was visiting family.

And for having fun in Montana, I'm moving to CA! As much as I love it up here, there's not enough consistent work to support a family...doing sound anyway. In fact my wife and son take off tomorrow and I'll follow in a month or so. Much to still do on this house remodel before we can afford to sell it. We already bought some land in the CA gold country though, between Sacto and Tahoe, on the S Fork American River. It's only an hour from Sacto and only 6 hr drive to LA (and coming from MT and WY, that's "just down the road") so I'm hoping my days of taking such "local hire" abuse are nearing an end. We'll see...

As far as the sound files, they're the only real leverage I have in this ensuing battle. Hmmm, I guess recording to my own deck was a smart thing in the end, even with the moisture damage suffered. I expect (hope) that any court would enthusiastically rule in my favor, especially considering the fact that I have yet to be paid.

BTW, I got my 744T back from SD a couple of days ago and it's better than new with several mod updates in adition to repairs. Gotta love good service!

EB

[FSBELLA]

EB,

you are going to do real good out here. you have a great attitude and you love what you r doing. look me up next time your in town, check out the new shop.

p.s.

always record on the 744t for leverage and a piece of mind

FS

[Eric Burge]

EB,

you are going to do real good out here. you have a great attitude and you love what you r doing. look me up next time your in town, check out the new shop.

p.s.

always record on the 744t for leverage and a piece of mind

FS

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm hoping to have more regular work in CA than MT provides. Although the Sierra Nevada is dear to my heart, there's something special about knowing you're not at the top of the food chain when in the woods. I will miss the grizzlies here.

New shop? Where?

I'm thinking of heading south after NAB, but much depends on moving progress made by then.

EB

[FSBELLA]

EB,

I dont know if I should tell you where the new shop is. please go to "dealers and manufactorers"

fs

[Eric Burge]

Follow up...

I thought I'd flash an update on the production conflict I mentioned earlier in this thread.

I finally got paid for that blizzard job, but nothing additional to cover 744T rental nor help with repairs, overtime, etc. I never delivered the additional audio either. After the PM requested "all" audio files be sent, I responded with an addendum to my original invoice. It reflected the amount that I would have charged originally for the deck rental plus the time required to burn discs, which was pretty reasonable I thought. This pretty much pissed her off, but once again: good, fast, cheap...pick any two. Free is NOT an option. She said they could cut around the missing audio (lost due to weak radio link) so that was that. I was paid the amount we originally agreed to and they got what they paid for.

In the end it kind of bummed me out as it was a lot of work and heartache to stand up to it. (I could have used the extra cash too.) OTOH, as much as I felt I had to hold my ground when they became aggressive, I also thought it decent and professional to still honor my original "hand shake" deal.

The unfortunate part is that the show could have been better for the addtional dialog and sfx I had. I think it's also safe to say that I won't be working for that company again anytime soon. For anyone who thinks, "I wouldn't work for someone like that anyway", it has to be understood that (IMO at least) with better front-end communication both parties could have reached a clear understanding concerning work-flow, costs, and general expectations. Had I not focused so much on pre-pro "technicals" and simply assumed they would take care of me, cover out-of pocket expenses, and otherwise treat me fairly as I am used to (and apparently took for granted), much if not all of this could have been avoided.

To some, it is ALL about money...and that's too bad.

Live and learn.

EB

[FSBELLA]

EB,

Glad you finally got paid. and to bad they did not come to terms with you for the extra audio you had, that would of helped production with there final product.

bty, what happened to the wireless link to camera ?

talk to you later,

FS

[Eric Burge]

bty, what happened to the wireless link to camera ?

Can't say for sure. You'd have to ask the cameraman...who was supposed to be monitoring the camera send! We were up on a big mountain so I suspect it may have been an occasional range issue or rf hit or battery or Remember, I was laying down audio to only one camera, but they had 4 rolling picture. I know, stuipid, but who am I to criticize? All I know is that all was fine coming into my mixer and out to the 744t, and the Tx's for sends were powered up and tested fine whenever I sent out tone check.

I also recorded separate wild sound, sfx, and a couple good conversation bits that would have made great VO. These were only on the 744t and the director knew it, but like I said before, ain't nothin for free. OTOH, if the PM would have treated me right to begin with I would have happily retrieved the additional tracks for nothing extra. Moral for producers: Your sound guy in not a dog, but some day you may want him to fetch. Best to feed him well and treat him right. <g>

-EB

[FSBELLA]

EB,

Thats a bummer. I hear that alot, camera ops monitoring the audio and noticing "something" some of the time. when the sound man might notice it alot sooner before bigger problems can occur.

What system do you use or can you use to get a audio return when you are in particular situation? I have seen guys use a simple comtek/lectro ifb or even a lectro vhf wireless back to the mixer return, even the senn g2 seems to work (100-150 ft) when range is not a issue.

anyway,

good luck and talk to you later,

FS

[Brian Maier]

Is it typical for Sound to get points or is it generally dayrate/expenses and that's it?

[Philip Perkins]

Is it typical for Sound to get points or is it generally dayrate/expenses and that's it?

I used to hear about points deals on low-budg movies years ago--I don't hear much about that anymore.  These days there are so many people wanting to be sound mixers that they always seems to be able to find somebody who will work for what they want to pay without the extra paperwork of deferred payments, points etc..

Philip Perkins

[SoundGuy]

Eric,

A good friend of mine submitted still photos for consideration of use in an autobiography of a significant music industry individual (the names have been changed to keep lawyers from making any more money) and a photo was chosen for the cover of the book.  The photographer never knew it til the book was published and on the shelf!

AND they gave him a credit!

When he sent a bill, they said "We thought you would be happy that your photo was featured and wouldn't charge us."

Can you spell "I N T E L L E C T U A L  P R O P E R T Y" ?

So it goes.

Yes, Jeff, this mess is still in flux. It's nice to have a platform to discuss this type of stuff with other folks who know and care, and could also find themselves in a similar conflict. It's not that my friends or family don't care, but they don't [really] know what we do as location sound mixers. I concur with your comments regarding new trends toward producer manipulation. It's not everywhere, but it's rampant nevertheless. It makes me laugh when I see folks getting upset over RAMPS politics. I only wish that were my biggest problem.

As a freelance photographer, I used to deal with copyright regularly and I've always been amazed at how much film/TV people are willing to surrender [even before the fact] for a full day of creative work. Without more than one or two standout exceptions, every production contract that I've been asked to sign [for freelance or subcontract services] has read in overwhelming favor for the producer. It's to be expected that most any party would draw up an agreement favoring their position, but some of the deals I've seen are no less than pathetic in their manipulation and one-sidedness. We are always required to sign their paperwork, but when was the last time they signed anything of ours? How did it come to be that they had us over a barrel rather than extending a level of mutual trust and respect? I suspect it ultimately has to do with supply and demand, "no worries, we'll find a sound guy out there willing to work for crafts leftovers...", and unfortunately they too often will.

We also are considered "technicians" in the film biz rather than "artists", who tend to command more respect and often retain their copyright, leasing those rights rather than selling out completely in "work for hire" agreements. I guess the prestigious label "artist" is reserved only for the "creatives" working above the line. Who is kidding whom?!?!

My first film industry work was as a safety rigger for features and commercials. Looking back, boy, did we have it good. Most of us took for granted the respect we received for keeping the crew and cast alive and safe. Yet 15 years later I find myself working in a field that I find more technically challenging and yet too often feel treated as if my line were an afterthought, a necessary inconvenience and somehow less important part of the process.

Well, I've about had it with pimple-face "producers" telling me how to do my job...especially when they have no clue.

EB

[SoundHound]

I am a Dinosauer (sic)-even older than Jeff with 40 years of experience (37 years active-3 retired) and a witness to history.  I was supposed be dead now so I couldn't pass on any tips to new mixers.  During these four decades,  rates have fallen over a cliff.  When I started, in 1967, an IATSE mixer's day rate was 7/8 times that of an electronic technician-at or above a Corporate VP salary!  I worked 6+ days a week and loved it.  We were a vital and respected member of the shooting crew.

The recorder of the time (Kudelski's revolutionary Nagra III) rented for 3% of purchase/day as did other gear.  The tax code was much more lenient.  For 5/7 years I paid NO TAX-legally-except witheld FICA (and I got some of that back too).  For those inclined to fudge (there were no business computers then) there were no 1099's or other automatic reporting systems.  A family unit consisted of a working father and a, working in the home bringing up the kids, mother and 2.5 kiddies.  Typical disposable income, available for retirement investment, was 10 times more! 

So don't be secretive about your rates and working conditions.  Talk to your contemporaries frankly.  Discuss ever rate, every technique and trick that allows you to push rates up because this will benifit everone-especially you!  Even when rates seem to be fixed-RESIST! because the next time they will want to push rates lower.  Remember that the Producers and Corporate executives are engaged in an, overt, world wide conspiracy to drive wages and conditions lower.  Let me know how I can help.

[bailey]

EB

Care to share the name of the wonderful production company you danced with?