Rates

[Alexander Miles Burstein]

If I could chime in with a different perspective. I never went to film school and just learned what I know from being on set. Started as a boom op. and bought a 552 and microphone and went from there. I take projects that pay between $100-200/day, as well as the occasional $300-450/day. I can't justify a rate such as $600-1000/day with the equipment I have, yet I record quality audio.

I completely understand that undercutting hurts our business as a whole, but I find myself building strong connections and relationships. A few producers in fact end up paying me more on the next gig because of the work I do. The fact remains that I need to start somewhere, and learn through experience. If I'm working 20 out of 30 days a month at a very low rate, I'm also learning quite a bit. I'm becoming more comfortable and building my kit as I go along, and when I feel like I can justify getting paid the big bucks, I'll start charging that.

And if anyone is selling an MKH 50 I'm in the market for one =)

-Alexander

[Olle Sjostrom]

Take cover

(null)

[Angelo Waldron]

Go Ahead... Make My Day

[Tim M]

Alexander...if you are getting quality audio and busting your butt to do so, you deserve the rate. I don't think you are understanding this thread...if you want to have location audio as a hobby/weekend warrior that is fine, and I'm sure that isn't discouraged here. I mean wtf do you say when a "real producer" calls you and asks for your rate...

[taylormadeaudio]

FWIW,

I recently sent out a rate card to a potential client explaining that there was some room to negotiate, but that my rates were in line with the industry standards to which most of us try to adhere. The next I heard about it, they hired someone else for $350/day with gear. I was disappointed as I really could have used the 3 days of pay, and was surprised to hear who took the gig at that rate.

I think Mr. Toline said earlier in the thread something about how circumstances often cause us to "compromise" our rates -- especially when things are dire and "something" is better than "nothing"...

Our industry is feast or famine -- always has been. In 20+ years, I've never experienced the "perfect storm" of last-minute cancellations, missed opportunities due to circumstances beyond my control, and just a general ebb in gainful employment that last year brought me. I was not prepared for this "famine", and have only just recently been able to see some improvement, but this very week I locked in several gigs that will put me back into a comfortable range as far as any kind of financial cushion goes. I have a bunch of work lined up, and the rates are all better than average. Do I feel like I'm winning this war of attrition? yes.

My point is this:

To the newer Mixers who aspire to have a long career in this business -- the carrot that is dangled in front of you by these low-ball producers trying to do everything on the cheap is poisonous -- it leads to a trap from which you may never escape, and wind up calling home for a long time. The precedents you set are nearly impossible to break, and though you may have an immediate return, it is not sustainable -- and it only serves to further degrade our strength as a community of professionals.

There is an economic term: "what the market will bear"... the market will fall out from under us all if we don't get our shit together and score some solidarity with respect to rates. It's tempting to take a gig that promises $350/day with gear when you're starting out, and yes you may likely do just fine, generate some repeat business, and even eventually drive out your "competition"... many emerging economies have thrived on just this very principle. It's also tempting for a seasoned veteran to take lower paying gigs when faced with the prospect of foreclosure, or not being able to put food on the table. We all have our own set of circumstances that drive our decisions.

Please just keep in mind that these low-paying gigs should ONLY be the exception, not the norm -- they are quickly becoming the norm. We can only change that collectively. Please agree to these jobs sparringly! And please make sure that your invoices always reflect the standard rate, and that your "discounts" are just that -- discounts... not what they should always expect to pay.

Cut a client a break once, and they may call you back -- they may give you the impression that you're their "friend", but continue to cut them that deal, and you're sure as shit stinks only solidifying your position as their bitch.

~tt

[syncsound]

Well put, Tom.

[Chauncey Taylor]

Here is something I just read:

"I'm looking for a field audio guy to operate a lapel mic, boom pole, ENG and 4-8 channel field audio mixer. It'll be on Saturday June 23 in Wall, NJ and we're filming the TV show on NBC Sports for Formula Drift. My Day rate is $450 with audio gear plus per diem for meals. Please send a a list of experience or IMDB info and a list of equipment that you have available for use the day of the shoot"

Geez, I have even had a few "Producers" not even spring for the Subway tuna lately.... but then again some lately have even upped it to Jimmy Johns- tuna and turkey on the same shoot! Whoot Whoot!

Alex- for $100, I hope your plugging that Mic straight into the 552 and holding it up with your arm like a H4n, you can't rent that gear from a rental house for that little, FYI- your working for free, really! 28 gigs and your just breaking even on that investment in the 552, where is the budget for your own tuna subs?

[PTA]

Alex- for $100, I hope your plugging that Mic straight into the 552 and holding it up with your arm like a H4n, you can't rent that gear from a rental house for that little, FYI- your working for free, really! 28 gigs and your just breaking even on that investment in the 552, where is the budget for your own tuna subs?

+1

It may seem like you are just getting your feet off the ground by taking these gigs, but if you're getting good audio you should be charging the rate that the established mixers in your area are charging. Not only are you hurting yourself, but also the other mixers and the audio biz. You're worth it my friend.

[Den Nic]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for keeping us all at good rates, keeping everybody employed, charging properly for gear, etc etc.

But if (According to P-Did) us mixers who are just starting out are supposed to charge the same rate as experienced mixers, how would we get any work? The system is supposed to be you hire a guy who only has a year or two experience, you get the uncertainty of an inexperienced mixer but you get a better deal, whereas you hire a pro, and your get the security and reliability, but with a price.

I'm always trying to give a reason rate for the project that I still feel is appropriate, but, to me, to ask us 'newbies' just out of school to charge the SAME as guys with 5, 10, 15, or more year of experience just doesn't make any sense. Thats my 2 cents.

[ccsnd]

The problem is that people are buying gear to mix and trying to start at the top with absolutely no set experience rather than starting off as a third and working your way up.

Mixers are supposed to already have experience and know what they are doing before they buy all the gear. In my opinion you learn to mix from working with other experienced mixers, not from buying gear and blowing a bunch of projects before you get it right.

[Angelo Waldron]

The system is supposed to be you hire a guy who only has a year or two experience, you get the uncertainty of an inexperienced mixer but you get a better deal, whereas you hire a pro, and your get the security and reliability, but with a price.

NO. You are a Pro if you make money. Now deliver.

A cheap prostitute will always be a cheap prostitute. and they are PRO's.

[John Blankenship]

If you're doing the same gig that an experienced professional would do, then, yes, the rate should reflect that. Maybe shave a tad off for being a beginner, but not the 1/2 rates that some are offering. $50 to $100 less for the gig makes sense, "fire sale" prices, don't. Read your own posts, folks! You'll say how inexperinced your are in order to rationalize slashed rates, then insist what a good job you do! Your rates reflect how good a job you do, so don't go boasting how capable you are while, at the same time, telling us you're charging way too little for it. If you're charging 1/2 price rates, then the quality you're turning in is 1/2 quality. The disconnect here is that you don't realize that YOUR RATES SPEAK MUCH MORE LOUDLY THAN YOU DO.

Over and over and over again those of us with years under our belts are sharing the information that bargain basement prices will not only hurt you in the long run, but it'll hurt your fellow sound mixers and the industry as a whole. We aren't saying those things because we don't want you to get any gigs; we're saying them because many, many before you have been down that road and found out that it's a dead end. Smart people learn from other's experiences. Less savvy people insist on making every mistake themselves.

One of the best ways to move up in this business is by referral from other, more experienced, sound mixers when they are already booked on the same day when another job comes in. We all like being heros by helping the producer find a good alternative, but if we know that alternative is going to stab us in the back with lower rates -- NO RECOMMENDATION -- instead, we'll give them the phone number of someone we know who respects the profession.

We live in a society where people value what they have by what it costs. Keep that in mind.

[Olle Sjostrom]

It's all backwards now. People who own a MkIII now consider themselves DPs. And zoom owners automatically think they're mixers.

Go out and work as a third or even a PA and: pay attention! You'll learn tons. You can't go from get go to being a superstar mixer thinking your budget gear and low rate will bring you more jobs. It will only hurt you in the long run as people won't understand why they could get your perfect sound for little or no money, and then you start asking for more!

Set your aims for the moon, I'd you miss you'll still be among the stars.

In short; say you want a higher rate, every single time. even if you're fine with a lower rate.

That way, the producers will understand the importance of your role, and what it costs. And eventually YOU will understand that too. And that's harder than the first.

Think L'oreal;

I charge a higher rate, "because I'm worth it"

[Jared Detsikas]

My first posting!

I agree with the idea of working your way up but that is not always possible. Living in the Boston area the majority of work I've been called for has been small ENG shoots and corporate shoots where there usually isn't a boom op or a utility or even a PA. I learned a good amount from my mistakes doing the couple low budget-go no where films soon as I got out of school in addition to the several years I had done location sound in school and have been doing fine on the network shows I now do. Started out with used equipment and outgrew it and have done enough pay for the Nomad. I would have loved to (and still would love to) work under a seasoned mixer as a utility or boom op but I have yet to find that opportunity. Until discovering this forum I essentially knew no other sound mixers nor knew what the going rate was. Until reading this thread I was under the impression that $350 minus gear was an okay rate for someone who had been doing this for almost a year and that with time you would increase your rate as well. That was the rate for the first gig I worked on and so I guess you can call me ignorant for not looking more into it but after reading this I will most definitely be changing my rate and more carefully deciding what projects I take on. At the same time I do have to make sure I can pay rent, which if it comes to it, working 3 days out of the month at this half rate does that, though certainly not ideal. To me it kind of seems like a catch 22 and I don't know a way out of it. Maybe I'm not in the right circle but Boston seems like a quit city in terms of work. I still feel I could learn a lot from working with others and would even prefer it. If anyone has suggestions or anyone on here is from Boston feel free to message me.

~Jared D

[Toy Robot]

I still think it would be a massive help to have a rate sheet like the one the BECTU released for mixers in different areas of the US.

There is an entire thread about this called I would just love it if this thread sparks more interest in something tangible to fix the problem at hand. It's a long thread, but in my humble opinion it's worth the read since this is an obvious and ongoing problem that affects us all.

Complaining is only tangible on this forum, but you wind up with nothing to show new sound mixers or producers to actually aid in fixing the problem.

My $0.02.

[ProSound]

Has anyone else had a lot more people attempting to get you to work for a flat rate? I use to get one or two people a year ask for a flat in the last 2 days I have had 3 different jobs ask me my 10 hour rate and then ask me if I would be agreeable to working a flat rate day at my 10 hour rate or up to 12 hours on my 10 hour rate but they promise they will only work me 10.5...... right. I have gotten two of the jobs to agree to my 10 hour rate one is still considering it. All 3 jobs also wanted lots of gear for only $200 per day for gear one job changed from wanting no recorder to a recorder and timecode slate but only still wanted to pay 200 WTF........ The one producer told me most people are happy to have the work and are "more agreeable" then me. I told him I am agreeable when paid an agreeable rate...........

[ccsnd]

Last time I did a flat rate, I negotiated it for the entire 21 day project at 12hrs/day. My only other demand was that I get paid up front.

They added failure to perform clauses that were very one sided, but also put on there that a day equalled 12 hours. at the end of day 5 after working 5, 17-19 hr days I walked.

Everyone on that set treated me and my boom op like shit. When they told me to return the money I called it a breach of contract. I kept the money.

They promised better work in the future (not that I believed it) but I don't think they will be calling me back.

[atheisticmystic]

This topic always pisses me off in the "damned if you do..." department.

It's a closed industry with no clear entry way into learning the craft, the industry is imploding and undergoing massive changes, the economy in general is very difficult, but somehow the newbies are threatening the entire game by "undercutting" the veterans???

It's a lot more complex than that.

Best,

Steven

[Marc Wielage]

After saying no, I wait a few days and call back trying to see if I can negotiate a deal in the 11th hour of their production only to be told that not only did someone say yes to the 200, but they threw in all the gear and then some. Later when I see the projects final product, the sound has actually been done pretty well.

I haven't had that happen, but I did very recently have a case where I had a producer try to lowball me, and I (politely) declined, since we were about $150 apart in the rate. He said he'd call me back. I kind of wrote it off, thinking he had found somebody cheaper... but on a whim, I called him back at the end of the following day, just to confirm a yes or a no -- and he caved and met the rate. I think if I had initially been aggressive and combative about it, it might not have worked.

They just booked for a third job, so I seem to be doing OK with these people.

[Alexander Miles Burstein]

It's all backwards now. People who own a MkIII now consider themselves DPs. And zoom owners automatically think they're mixers.

Go out and work as a third or even a PA and: pay attention! You'll learn tons. You can't go from get go to being a superstar mixer thinking your budget gear and low rate will bring you more jobs. It will only hurt you in the long run as people won't understand why they could get your perfect sound for little or no money, and then you start asking for more!

Set your aims for the moon, I'd you miss you'll still be among the stars.

In short; say you want a higher rate, every single time. even if you're fine with a lower rate.

That way, the producers will understand the importance of your role, and what it costs. And eventually YOU will understand that too. And that's harder than the first.

Think L'oreal;

I charge a higher rate, "because I'm worth it"

I'll take this advice. But I must say that as a sound mixer I learn quite a bit. Whether I'm a one man department or hiring a boom operator I find that the more I'm on set the more I'm learning when to fight for my sound, and when to let things go. Specifically I think that being a sound mixer I'm learning more, and at a faster rate. I could spend more time booming, because I know the value of it. And I'm open to the idea of utility when I have free time.

I'd also like to put this into perspective a bit, because I wasn't very clear earlier. I'm going into my 2nd year of working as a sound mixer for student films mostly. These are USC, Chapman, or AFI thesis projects. The the low end rates such as $350/day I keep seeing in this thread are my luxury rates. I'm not complaining either, I enjoy what I do and this isn't something fun to do on the weekend, I'm building a career.

In response to John

-I'll definitely start quoting higher because I know what I'm delivering is great audio.

In response to Thesoundguy

-I started out as a boom operator working for very experienced and established sound mixers, but then got offered mixing gigs because I had a small amount of gear that gets the job done. It paid more than my booming projects so I haven't gone back very often since. I don't see a problem with this if I continue to work hard and learn more.

Now get ready to get really upset (sorry everyone). I'm in pre-production right now for a 90 page feature that's ambitiously shooting in 7 days at one location (a house with wood floors). The pay is $150/day and no gear rental fee. I finally got them to agree to allow me a boom op for $75/day. The director wants to shoot 2 different master shots, and get coverage if there's time, while not stopping the roll because he likes to just "keep rolling" to try and find some magic. Oh and there's 6 actors. One, a fairly famous actor telling me how we're not stopping for the cars (we're on the street), planes, and students (yes there's a middle school down the street as well) because there "won't be time". I would usually give up at this point, but I'm working with a handful of crew that I really like to work with. The lesson I learn on this one is most likely going to be never ever, ever, do this again, but can't I just start taking all this great advice after this last project?

[Alexander Miles Burstein]

I know I sound like a huge fool, but it's my first feature technically and I'm eager.

[Alexander Miles Burstein]

I'm slowly coming to the realization that having my name on this project could potentially hurt me. Uh oh...

[RScottATL]

Just be clear with them -- you're getting paid babysitters' rates to baby sit the equipment. You can make sure they will have recordings on tape of every single car by and child screech that occurs on the block. As long as they realize that they can realistically expect a lot of unfixable audio that will read as a blatant mistake by their audience, and you're OK with the rate, it should be fine. When the stars align and there is a quiet set, there should be great audio on the track that demonstrates what their entire project could and should sound like, and validates that you do know what you are doing and it's not your fault it sounds like poo during the rest of the film.

If they somehow think that by badgering you on your job they can expect you to produce great sound out of what you have before you, it may be more hassle than its worth. It requires a lot less expensive gear to hear babies cry anywhere else. And you can watch a decent movie with a real plot and great actors while you do it.

[ccsnd]

If you are going to do that job regardless of rate be sure to tell them "you get what you get"

If you do a bad job on something that nobody will ever see, I can't see how it will hurt. If you blow something people will see, that is a different story.

[Max Futterman]

Hey Alexander.

I consider student films a much different animal than anything else. They aren't supposed to have money or experienced crews, And they're really meant to educate the filmmakers so hopefully they become great clients in the future. I take no issue cutting students a break on the money, although I haven't worked on one in ages for that very reason.

I think the problem that a lot of us are having is student film rates on non student projects.