Martin Kittappa Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I just took an enquiry about a three day run and gun ENG type shoot. and during the rate negotiations the producer passed on a request that the camera op would like to have a wireless camera hop if possible so we don't have to be tethered, however they didn't budget for it in the rental package. I told her that I do have the Zaxcom hop, and I could maybe do some kind of discount on the rental. The response was less than enthusiastic- 'We just thought it would be easier for you and the camera guy if you could just bring it as we will moving around a lot of crowded spaces, but as long as it sounds good you can hard wire if you like- it makes no difference to us' To be honest she has a point- It would be easier to use the Zaxcom hop as I won't have to worry about managing the breakaway cable and that makes me very tempted to bring it anyway. Also as I get a lot of my work from camera ops, it would create a good impression with someone else who I haven't worked with before. (He would also know that I have a wireless hop available to use if asked to find a sound mixer on future gigs). I am just concerned that this will set up a precident that as far as production companies are concerned wireless hops will become as an expected freebie. Any thoughts on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Futterman Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I'd speak to the camera guy. They seem to have more weight with the budget than sound. And even if nothing changes rental wise, the camera guy will know you have it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Ostroff Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Hard to think about giving away the rental on a >4K piece of gear... (null) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bollard Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Don't give it away. Once you have the production will NEVER pay for it again. Have a think about the camera guys. They have made a habit of giving bits if kit away to sweeten the way production sees them. Now all those extras they used to get paid for are expected to be included. If you can't get the camera guy to come in to bat for you run with the cable on the first day and see how you go. If you are shooting somewhere that is a public place then you are in a great position to argue from an oh&s stand point; amazing how quickly legal liability can sway a production. Most large spaces (malls, public streets,hospitals) have a no cables policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg sextro Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I'd speak to the camera guy. They seem to have more weight with the budget than sound. And even if nothing changes rental wise, the camera guy will know you have it! +1 to what Max said it will help to have him on your side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Kittappa Posted May 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I'm thinking that this may be of case of suffering for the greater good- If it was something like Comteks I could easily hold out as these don't really make any difference to my workflow, they can either pay for them or not have them. (It's funny how producers will quickly jump to pay for extra Comteks for every producer, client and their entourages without a second thought, but when it comes to items that actually make our job better or easier they make us jump through a million hoops to get it). The wireless hop on the other hand also benefits me in that it makes my job easier not having to manage the cable. If I don't bring the bring the hop it will be more work for both me and the camera op, but at least production will know that if they want something extra then they need to pay for it, but if we do a great job will they start thinking 'Why do we need to pay for the hop anyway?- The cable sounds just as good at a fraction of the price'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Charge for the damn thing!!! Is it that hard for people to stand up for themselves? You paid OVER $4,000 for a piece of gear that makes the camera op's life easier (as is evident by he/she requesting it). Look at it this way: the camera op will get better shots because they aren't tethered to you. Also, if the camera op wants to be free from a cable they can always provide the wireless hop. I swear, I'm getting sick of producers telling me "the last sound guy threw in the wireless hops for free so why can't you?" Next time a producer says that to me I'm finding out who the previous mixer was and I'm sending them an invoice for any pieces of gear that were thrown in for free. Stop giving things away for free!!! It's not rocket science. You spent a hell of a lot of money on gear they want. You charge appropriately for that gear. It's simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 You might mention to production that what they're asking for free, costs as much as a camera. They understand paying for a camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Yep it's hard but even producers need to understand that it is additional equipment to say a mixer a boom two radios and a cable. In truth I would always say that as a radio hop is not monitored that the need for a recorder as a backup is necessary insurance too! mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrider Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 One thing you could do is make the hop part of your base package and raise your rate accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomboom Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 +1 to what Max and Mike said: my usual practices... :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Make sure the camera op knows you have it available, but need rental to pull it out. Often they are the strongest advocate. Last thing they want is a sound mixer to be an anchor. If they have not been cabled to a mixer in a while, they may forget how to work as a pair. I've been there! Based on that email, I would cable up, but keep your hop kit in the car. if it is really crowded spaces, somebody will probably find the money. The fair rental of that gear is worth it if the shoot will otherwise be compromised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 what's the rental on a hop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 For me, it would depend on how good the gear rate is. If it's a great gear rate, and I'm not using a lot of talent wireless, I might be inclined to use the hop. That's with the thinking that X gear rental covers X number of channels of wireless, regardless of how they are being used. More than that, production pays per channel, regardless of whether it's a hop or a talent mic. On shows that don't want to spend the money on gear, I've refused hops and showed up and hardwired in. Usually the camera guys will talk to production, or the producers watch you being cabled, and the hops come out, with rental being paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RScott Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 You could offer 1 channel wireless with 1 channel to camera based on a 2 wireless package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 For me, it would depend on how good the gear rate is. If it's a great gear rate, and I'm not using a lot of talent wireless, I might be inclined to use the hop. That's with the thinking that X gear rental covers X number of channels of wireless, regardless of how they are being used. More than that, production pays per channel, regardless of whether it's a hop or a talent mic. On shows that don't want to spend the money on gear, I've refused hops and showed up and hardwired in. Usually the camera guys will talk to production, or the producers watch you being cabled, and the hops come out, with rental being paid. I think this is a healthy perspective -- if the rate is good, you can always shift things around a bit on the invoice, and still look like the good guy. If the rate is already low, why make it lower by adding even more gear? This stuff costs us. It depreciates (much more rapidly than it used to)... it needs frequent maintenance and repair... Beyond paying to repair something if it's obviously damaged on their gig, they assume no liability for upkeep on the gear (really expensive gear), and yet they get to reap the benefits of it's use on their productions. Be a rental house in that respect -- have a policy you can justify -- and STICK TO IT. If you wind up tethered to a camera and having to explain to a camera op that you have hops but production wouldn't pay for it, then production will be the bad guy, not you. ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 " however they didn't budget for it in the rental package. " they can adjust the budget. " this will set up a precedent " you betcha'... with the production company, and with the camera person --who apparently doesn't want to purchase a hop system to give away! I like the ideas of either allowing the production to have one of your package's included wireless used as a hop, or increasing your basic package to include the hop... remember the rental of the hop also includes the backup recording... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Den Nic Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Zaxcom camera hop for free? You can discount it, but to just say 'oh well I'm just going to bring it anyway' devalues your (and others) investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Production can also look at it this way: they will get better footage if the camera is free to move as they please. If the camera op is tethered to you and you have to boom someone then the camera can only be X number of feet away. As others mentioned...cable up but have the hops ready to go when production magically finds the money. You win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 what's the rental on a hop? If it's 2 Lectrosonics, or a stereo Zaxcom, I usually consider it the same as 2 additional wireless. That's for a feed to one camera. Not sure how people charge for a second receiver set (to send the same 2 channel feed to 2 cameras). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianW Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Look at it this way, too... if you didn't already own the equipment, would the benefit you receive from not being cabled be worth it to you to pay the rental rate yourself? Because that's essentially what you're doing. Personally, I don't think it's worth paying the extra out of my pocket just to unplug. It's just economics, really. If productions become accustomed to us providing tens of thousands of dollars worth of fragile, high-maintenance equipment for free we'll quickly end up spending more than we earn in any given year. That only works if you're a government who can print your own money and forcefully take it from others, and even then it doesn't work forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Not sure how people charge for a second receiver set (to send the same 2 channel feed to 2 cameras). I do. Two cameras two receivers two invoice items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I always charge for additional receivers on the cameras. The initial price is for one TX/RX set. Additional receivers are just that...additional. I don't know about you guys but I had to pay real money for my gear so I in turn charge real money to my clients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 " I had to pay real money for my gear so I in turn charge real money to my clients. " Honest, pretty simple, very basic and easy to understand concept... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I always charge for additional receivers on the cameras. The initial price is for one TX/RX set. Additional receivers are just that...additional. I don't know about you guys but I had to pay real money for my gear so I in turn charge real money to my clients. Are you willing to say how much for a second RX? On paper a wireless mic rents for $65-$75/day (anyone can google that price from rental houses). Using that as a base, a camera hop should fetch $150/day. How much would you add for a second camera RX that is getting the same feed? I mean that as opposed to the situation somebody posted on here where a show wanted different channels on different cameras (requiring multiple sets of transmitters). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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