wwsound Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Just got off another RED shoot (Scarlet, this time) and I've finally had it. It's not that it's the camera's fault - The problem is that morons can afford to shoot on RED. Obviously RED has some serious shortcomings with sound, but they're cameras - They're not audio recorders. Good productions understand this, but many productions don't. I thought I would share some experiences of when RED problems have become my fault. 1) RED One MX audio error: Not too long ago i worked on a short shot on a RED MX. I had NOTHING to do with the camera - no timecode and no sound to camera. Along the way, the camera started shutting down due to "audio errors." Turns out that the camera was overheating, but somehow it became my problem. 2) RED epic timecode: I worked on a shoot with two brand spankin' new Epics. This was before the epic could even record audio. In the days leading up the the shoot, I was told that it was run and gun and there was just not enough time to slate, but if I jammed TC to the cameras at the beginning of the day everything would be OK. Well, as it turns out, the first shot was nearly 30 minutes off. In retrospect, there should have been SB-3's or SB-T's on the cameras (OR they should have chosen a more job-appropriate camera ), but that's a camera dept issue. When some cameras need a syncbox (RED), and other cameras fail with a syncbox (Alexa), it seems to me that TC into the camera is camera dept issue - I'll supply it, but camera needs to know what to do with it. 3) Scarlet playback: This one is pretty self-explanatory - No camera audio on playback = sound dept's fault (RED is the best camera, after all). The good news is that once I explain these problems most people usually get it. That being said, there is no reason why I should know more about the camera than the CAMERA DEPARTMENT. Anyone else have some stories? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacefivesound Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Red Epic has a 120ms delay while rolling. OK, delay audio to match picture. Director decides "hey, I want to be on set for a take", now he hears the real actors plus the delayed headphone feed. "WHAT IS THIS DELAY? SOUND??? WHAT IS THE PROBLEM??" But they don't want their headphones to be out of sync with monitors either. And then they want to know the 'fix' ... "This didn't happen last time; our last sound guy didn't have this problem!" (the funny thing is, according to the 1st AC, the last shoot they did was on an epic as well, and they had the exact same problem.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwsound Posted June 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Ha! On the same Scarlet shoot I mentioned, there were complaints about a delay between sound and picture in the monitor. You guessed it - the people complaining never used their comteks! Yet somehow, the delay between the picture reaching the monitor and the sound they heard from their own ears was...wait for it...a SOUND PROBLEM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 I have warned directors before: "the camera's processing chips delays the picture by X number of frames. As a result, the sound you hear live on the set will be early. It's a known camera issue." As to WW's questions: 1) the audio errors and overheating have been discussed on the RedUser Forum. New software has fixed some (but not all) of this. Rebooting seems to be the workaround, but I never advise relying on the camera alone for the only sound recording. 2) RED epic timecode: same deal. The 3.2.16 firmware (latest) fixes some of this, but the reality is, you need multiple lockit or SB-T boxes for a multiple-camera shoot. And you need genlock as well as timecode for external sync. https://www.red.com/downloads 3) Scarlet playback: doesn't work yet, to my knowledge. Many of these questions can be answered or answers verified by Red directly: (949) 206-7900. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Going back to the Red One (and MX) there is a error that says "Audio Fault". I *thought* it was a TC issue (external sync), but I was recently told it's most likely something completely different and has nothing to do with sound. I didn't see that error on the Epic feature I worked on. Maybe it's resolved. The Epic shoot I did also lacked playback in the firmware (December), so I was safe from that one. It was like film! I have done shoots where the camera department refuses even a G2 for scratch audio, so of course it's my fault that there is no audio on playback. "Well can't you play back from that recorder and have it be in sync with the picture and come over these Comteks?". I have found a few Alpha-jerk camera guys reduced to creeps trying to push me under the bus for that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Just got off another RED shoot (Scarlet, this time) and I've finally had it. It's not that it's the camera's fault - The problem is that morons can afford to shoot on RED. Obviously RED has some serious shortcomings with sound, but they're cameras - They're not audio recorders. Good productions understand this, but many productions don't. I thought I would share some experiences of when RED problems have become my fault. 1) RED One MX audio error: Not too long ago i worked on a short shot on a RED MX. I had NOTHING to do with the camera - no timecode and no sound to camera. Along the way, the camera started shutting down due to "audio errors." Turns out that the camera was overheating, but somehow it became my problem. 2) RED epic timecode: I worked on a shoot with two brand spankin' new Epics. This was before the epic could even record audio. In the days leading up the the shoot, I was told that it was run and gun and there was just not enough time to slate, but if I jammed TC to the cameras at the beginning of the day everything would be OK. Well, as it turns out, the first shot was nearly 30 minutes off. In retrospect, there should have been SB-3's or SB-T's on the cameras (OR they should have chosen a more job-appropriate camera ), but that's a camera dept issue. When some cameras need a syncbox (RED), and other cameras fail with a syncbox (Alexa), it seems to me that TC into the camera is camera dept issue - I'll supply it, but camera needs to know what to do with it. 3) Scarlet playback: This one is pretty self-explanatory - No camera audio on playback = sound dept's fault (RED is the best camera, after all). The good news is that once I explain these problems most people usually get it. That being said, there is no reason why I should know more about the camera than the CAMERA DEPARTMENT. Anyone else have some stories? Since I got the erx1TCD I have not had problems with Reds TC. Just did a promo for upcoming show. 2 MX. One camera locked on 1v TC and the other on 2V. Then I did a boxing commercial with MX where TC bled in to the audio channel like crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toy Robot Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 I have warned directors before: "the camera's processing chips delays the picture by X number of frames. As a result, the sound you hear live on the set will be early. It's a known camera issue." ... Yes, yes, yes. I have told many people not to worry, everything will be fine, but some people just don't understand and think that the sound is going to be horribly out of sync. And bravo for stating it as a 'camera issue'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Davenport Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 They are just terrible products, everything made by RED. I don't like any of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Is there an inexpensive adjustable and small delay device to feed the comteks? J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg sextro Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Is there an inexpensive adjustable and small delay device to feed the comteks? J.D. Behringer Shark comes to mind, but it's not really bag friendly. If you are using Zaxcom IFBs, you can add a delay. Some people have had luck with a Boss guitar delay pedal. to the OP - any RED camera equals double system. If you can get a sync box on the camera, you won't need a slate (afaik, the newer software versions are good with TC, early ones had problems) A lot of what it takes to work with this camera is to display confidence to the producers/camera men/etc... that YOU KNOW it is not a stable camera for audio. I still come across RED epic cameras where the damn thing wont recognize that I have anything plugged into the audio input, even though the cables are correct and have worked for me before and even though I have gone through the menu settings and have adjusted accordingly. I have lately started to have producers/coordinators/cameramen say that they know it's a bit of a crap-shoot still when it comes to the audio section of their camera, whereas originally most refused to believe that this could be the case. YMMV. My point is that you need to be the authority on the audio section of these cameras, most cameramen don't seem to care. -g- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 " it seems to me that TC into the camera is camera dept issue - I'll supply it, but camera needs to know what to do with it. " that should cover it, but in real life... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Thanks The Behringer Shark looks like it would work but it looks as though it needs 110 AC. Am I wrong ? J.D. Behringer Shark comes to mind, but it's not really bag friendly. If you are using Zaxcom IFBs, you can add a delay. Some people have had luck with a Boss guitar delay pedal. to the OP - any RED camera equals double system. If you can get a sync box on the camera, you won't need a slate (afaik, the newer software versions are good with TC, early ones had problems) A lot of what it takes to work with this camera is to display confidence to the producers/camera men/etc... that YOU KNOW it is not a stable camera for audio. I still come across RED epic cameras where the damn thing wont recognize that I have anything plugged into the audio input, even though the cables are correct and have worked for me before and even though I have gone through the menu settings and have adjusted accordingly. I have lately started to have producers/coordinators/cameramen say that they know it's a bit of a crap-shoot still when it comes to the audio section of their camera, whereas originally most refused to believe that this could be the case. YMMV. My point is that you need to be the authority on the audio section of these cameras, most cameramen don't seem to care. -g- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 " Am I wrong ? " the one I like is from Radio Design Labs (RDL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmahaAudio Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 " Am I wrong ? " the one I like is from Radio Design Labs Which doesn't answer his question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Is there an inexpensive adjustable and small delay device to feed the comteks? If you're using a 788, you can dial-in digital delay for designated outputs. The Behringer Shark is not 12VDC powered, as far as I know, so it limited in terms of mobile applications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordi Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Expecting a helpful reply from Mr Mike is like expecting honesty from a politician. It is rumored to exist, but nobody has ever witnessed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Expecting a helpful reply from Mr Mike is like expecting honesty from a politician. It is rumored to exist, but nobody has ever witnessed it. The politician statement may be correct - but the statement regarding the senator is far from being accurate. Some time you have to weed through some inane stuff but there are gems in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 The Behringer Shark looks like it would work but it looks as though it needs 110 AC. Am I wrong ? 110VAC only. Awhile back, I located a box called the Hall Research AD-340, and this is rated at 9VDC: http://www.hallresearch.com/page/AD-340 It could conceivably tolerate 12VDC in a bag, but I'd check with the manufacturer first. It's only about $320 from Markertek, which is more expensive than the Shark, but looks a little smaller and more convenient to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 12, 2012 Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 " Which doesn't answer his question. " the poster answered his own question quite well... I still sense some hostility... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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