jrd456 Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Is there a way to have the fans turn off while the Red Epic is recording? J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 No as the camera will overheat. I think 25% is the lowest you can comfortably run. The metadata the epic puts out shows cam fan speed and cam temp so if the temp is low and the takes you are shooting are short then you can run the fans lower. But in short no they cannot be switched off. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 The settings on the camera allow for fan to slow while rolling. It's best to allow the fan to be on the highest setting possible (outside or in noisy environment) because the camera will override the setting if it gets hot and run fan at 100%. The fan can be set as low at 15% on latest firmware, I believe, if you need it very quiet. 25% is pretty normal. If you are having trouble on your shoot with camera overheating. Suggest treating it like a film camera. Roll when you're actually ready and cut when the take's over. One take at a time. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Almost all of the Red Epic shoots I do are doco style interviews, often with people who are very tightly scheduled. We roll for as long as we need to roll, often as much as 30 min w/o a cut. We found that we had two choices: A: let the Epic fans run at something like 50% all the time (and this in a temperate room) B: run the fans at a lower speed (35%ish) and have the interview busted by the fans "going off" on their own after 20 min or so because the camera is starting to overheat. For short takes in cool rooms you can drop to as low as 15%, but if you do a lot of takes in a row you may find the fan coming on anyhow. I am totally over arguing about this with productions and DPs who like the camera, if they notice the noise while we're rolling I outline the choices as above. Lately I've been doing long-interview type shoots with TWO Epics, with predictable results re fan noise.... phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 I just finished up my first job with RED Epic cameras. Feature movie (I almost said "film") called "42", the Jackie Robinson story. We were shooting in the south during June and July, so hot, hot, hot everywhere. The DP, Don Burgess (a really good filmmaker, old school and a good friend) and the whole camera crew were well aware of the "hairdryer" characteristics of the RED Epic cameras (they own the cameras as well and so they are meticulously maintained and they are very familiar with all aspects of the gear). We never had any problems with camera fan noise while rolling with the fans reduced normally to I believe 25%. We did have several takes blown by the fans coming on during the take to save the camera from destruction. In those instances it was usually because we tried to do several takes "on a roll", resetting back to number one and going again --- this resulted in rather long takes (by feature setup standards typically) which the camera could not tolerate. We would then have to sit and wait, fans running full bore and the assistant hosing it down with freon (dust off) to try and cool it down). For us, the most annoying aspect of the RED Epic is the constant, loud fan (hairdryer) white noise that permeates the set during setup, blocking rehearsals and final rehearsals, with the first take being our first chance to really get a sense of what it is all going to sound like --- invariably we would have to find other noises on the set after take one (something we almost never had to do in the past when we were able to sort everything out beforehand, usually even during 2nd team rehearsals). The thing that made it a little bit more tolerable than some of the situations people have posted here is that we never lost sight of the fact that we were making a movie --- shooting with the RED camera, the Director, the DP, the actors, everyone else, still held firm allegiance to the tried and true methods of movie-making, going back to the days when it was all FILM-making. There was none of this "just keep the camera rolling" BS, things were blocked out sensibly, coverage was all planned out and we all knew how to complete the scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted July 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 We thought we were going to have it easier when we got rid of film camera's with shutter noise. J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Jeff, Glad to read your Epic shoot went well. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 I haven't seen a Red of any type in a year and a half not that it matters to this conversation, but what Jeff said about the style of shooting is important to any camera and most shoots. When I work with a top notch well trained crew it doesn't matter what type camera we use. It all goes to hell only when we toss out the rules and re invent the wheel of film making with new non traditional "creative" type directors or cameramen/women. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 I agree about "new" methods (read: lazy) in regards to camera fans in drama or commercials, but we're kind of stuck on doco style work (esp interviews) no matter how experienced or together the filmmakers are--the camera just runs REALLY hot, and no one wants to take responsibility for camera damage. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Phillip, I don't see how anyone can do a long interview with the RED camera, it is almost for sure the fans are going to come on and totally ruin the take. We couldn't go longer than about 6 minutes in the hot environments we were working in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 I just finished up my first job with RED Epic cameras. Feature movie (I almost said "film") called "42", the Jackie Robinson story. How many people have worked on two movies with numbers in the title: 61* and 42! We would then have to sit and wait, fans running full bore and the assistant hosing it down with freon (dust off) to try and cool it down). Yes, very famously -- going back to one of the first early prototype Red Ones -- Steven Soderberg had to use bags of frozen peas on the camera during the desert production of Che to cool down the camera. It's definitely an issue. The thing that made it a little bit more tolerable than some of the situations people have posted here is that we never lost sight of the fact that we were making a movie --- shooting with the RED camera, the Director, the DP, the actors, everyone else, still held firm allegiance to the tried and true methods of movie-making, going back to the days when it was all FILM-making. There was none of this "just keep the camera rolling" BS, things were blocked out sensibly, coverage was all planned out and we all knew how to complete the scene. And that makes a huge bit of difference. The neophytes who try to push the Red too far, especially with super-long takes... that's a recipe for disaster. I'm very curious how they handled the multiple Red Epic 3D setups on The Hobbit, especially given the 48fps data rates, which is a tremendous stress on the whole pipeline. Maybe lots of bags of frozen New Zealand peas... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bollard Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Heat is generally not a problem in New Zealand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Isn't cjh on here the sound mixer on the hobbit? The fans on the epic during rehearsals and on set are just unbearable... And it all adds up! The last shoot I was on (a 5d shoot though) had the dp playing music between setups. I kindly asked him not to do that so I could source noises. He accepted. I asked him why he would do that? He answered that on his last shoot, epic shoot, the fan on the camera had been such a beast that the sound mixer had just given up and tried to replace the noise with music instead, that sound mixer wouldn't have been able to source out anything apparently :/ Anyway, in the long run, the fans of the epic might teach teams that it's ok to make noises, and let the sound team look for noises during takes instead. What happens if the noise destroys a perfectly good first and only take? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Heat is generally not a problem in New Zealand Well heat is generally not a problem in Wellington but it does get hot further north. Look this topic has been thrashed over the last year, but no frozen peas on our cameras on the Hobbit. 35% fan speed was the lowest we could go. Before we shot a scene I would liaise with the camera tech and discuss how low he reckoned the cam fans could go given things like ambient room temp and the like. on the very latest epics we could go at 35% for most things, sometimes I would have the closer A cam at that speed and the B cam further away at say 40% just so there was less chance that it would go to full fan speed during a "rolling reset". if it was whispered dial with the cams close I would opt for lower fan speed and think well "sod it" if the fans kick in then the mood of the scene is screwed so we would wait till they stopped, better that than having noisy fans all through the dial. As Jeff pointed out and what I have experienced the " hair dryer effect" is the worst thing about these cams. I would be sweating as sometimes on a very long low level dial scene we would not rehearse and it wasn't till we rolled that I could hear the set for the first time. Not a great way to do our jobs. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Campion Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 35% rolling 75% idle was what was recommended to me by cam dept as a safe default. There are only a few variables, surely a graph could be easily plotted to convey accurately how much time we'd have shooting on 25%, or 15% if needed for a whispering close up. There's ambient temp, camera sensor and core temperature. we know that when the core reaches 70 the fans kick in, so just a few tests will give us all the argument we need. I.e, its 20 degrees C, and the core is at 50dC now, so we can roll at 15% for 2.5 mins safely. On another note, does anyone have any tips about mounting your Gel packs, (or frozen peas) so as not to block air entering the camera, and cool it effectively? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjh Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 FYI - Tony above is the MU mixer on the hobbit, I'm 2nd unit. One other thing that I think helps is a lower ambient studio temp than we used to get because all the studio space lights have been replaced with image 80's which output no heat. Hairdryer effect during rehearsals is definitely painfull, this is where you really need an assist to have an open ear onset once you turnover so they can hunt down noises so when you do eventually cut you have a chance of sorting some of them quickly. I couldn't think of a worse camera for long interviews in a warm room though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Phillip, I don't see how anyone can do a long interview with the RED camera, it is almost for sure the fans are going to come on and totally ruin the take. We couldn't go longer than about 6 minutes in the hot environments we were working in. Yes, I know. But people fall in love with the picture the camera makes, and if those people have ponied up the $ to buy or rent Epics and those people are one's clients you do the best you can. I really don't like the steady-state noise of two Epics at 50%, but that is possible to attenuate somewhat in post if it is consistent. The "jet takeoff" noise of the fans coming on full-bore just as the interviewee is getting deep into the story you came for because you've just rolled for 20 min in a moderately warm room is something I want to avoid nearly at all costs. Just another sacrifice sound makes for picture..... phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimMansen Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Makes me want to make a cooliing barney with cold water pumped from a iced source that I could sell as an Epic accessory. Just one more "hose" to add to the camera feed. What have we come to?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 " When I work with a top notch well trained crew it doesn't matter what type camera we use. It all goes to hell only when we toss out the rules and re invent the wheel of film making with new non traditional "creative" type directors or cameramen/women. " I'm going to be quoting you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHall Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Yeah, a liquid-cooled Epic is what's needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 " When I work with a top notch well trained crew it doesn't matter what type camera we use. It all goes to hell only when we toss out the rules and re invent the wheel of film making with new non traditional "creative" type directors or cameramen/women. " I'm going to be quoting you! Help yourself Mike but I don't think it will fit on a hat. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Yeah, a liquid-cooled Epic is what's needed. It's been discussed, but there are design issues that prevent it at the moment -- plus, Red has made it clear that if you modify the camera body, it voids the warranty. The fan output is on the front of the camera (!!!), so it gets pushed right in the same direction at which the lens is aimed. I appreciate Tony & Chris' insights on The Hobbit. The work you guys are doing on this film is really breaking a lot of new ground in many ways, and everything I've seen and heard on it so far is pretty stunning. I don't doubt that the challenges on it are considerable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I've talked to the people at Red and they don't seem to "give a hoot" about sound. I hope it bites them in the end. J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 " they don't seem to "give a hoot" about sound. " nothing to see here, double system, now move along... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 That's good,but what about the fans........Think J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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