Regarding the "Want To Buy - Want To Sell" section

[Jeff Wexler]

I am investigating ways to make changes to this particular section on JWSOUND. The hope would be that I could make some minor changes, just to that specific section, that would help avoid or minimize some of the uncomfortable things that have occurred there over the years. The simplest thing I can do, right now, is to make it a Moderated section. This will create a little delay with new posts and it will be a little bit more work for me, but it could provide the chance to vet the seller and their post before it goes public.

Self-policing and common sense have kept the section functioning very nicely for the most part and for that I am very grateful. It may well be that we continue in this manner without changing anything, let the regular control and guidance of common sense, honesty and decency dictate. I would like to hear ideas from anyone else on this matter.

[Jack Norflus]

Perhaps photos and serial numbers should be mandatory for anyone posting something for sale.

[MatthewFreedAudio]

I like the idea of photos, serial numbers, and the seller's real name being in the post.

Production Sound Mixing for Television, Films, and Commercials.

www.matthewfreed.com

[Mark Spagnolo]

I think that Jack has the right idea, coupled with the fact that many folks in the group will challenge the legitmacy of a posting when it lacks certain info and doesn't pass the smell test. Yes, there may be times when a legitmate sale is challenged, but that will be because it may lack some important info. Fair enough. These are not personal attacks, but legitmate questions of provenance. As a group, we all keep our eyes and ears out for lost or stolen equipment and as a community, that can be some of our best protection. I watch your back and you watch mine. Thank you.

In a perfect universe, maybe a moderator would be the best control, but that would be so labor intensive. So, I think that your view as to self-policing and common sense is quite appropriate here. Community policing via asking questions of provenance as to who and what is totally fair to any buyer or seller. And thanks to you and any other member who takes the time and uses their expertise to ferret out any suspect post.

[jason porter]

+1 for mandatory Real Name, approximate location, personal references, serials and photos.

If you don't like the policy, go to eBay instead.

[al mcguire]

I agree, real name , location , references , serial numbers and photo's.

Also a requirement that you have been a posting member of the forum for a minimum period of time - 30 days ?

[Derek H]

Thanks for taking the time to explore ways to improve this situation.

I agree. Real name, photos, serials, age of item and a brief history of the item should be mandatory. For example, if a wireless mic was used on a surfing documentary that would be good to know!

Other things I'd personally like to see standardized but not necessary would be: posting title. E.g. using "FS" or "WTB" only as opposed to "FO" for offer, "FA" for auction, "LF" looking for, or other confusing permutations.

I would also like to see an end to scant postings like: "Schoeps 41 for sale, make an offer". It's just irritating because there are always unanswered questions and it says to me the seller is not very serious.

thanks,

DH

[taylormadeaudio]

Requiring a potential seller to provide a real name will also require some sort of proof -- a scanned DL, etc? To whom would the task of verifying the provided info fall? It seems probable that our gracious host would likely be the best person, unless it was delegated to an appointed monitor or two...?

Obviously, putting more responsibility on Jeff isn't exactly ideal, but unless the aforementioned details were to be somehow verified, they too could be fabricated... photos and serial #'s are a great idea -- hard to fake... but beyond that, without verification, names and locations don't provide any real security.

I think as members here, we have a collective responsibility to contribute (much as we have) in the vetting and "sniffing out" of potential legitimate sellers vs. fraudulent attempts.

In the end, "buyer beware" is still our best line of defense. I would personally feel much safer entering into a transaction with someone that has a history here, including endorsements from other known users.

~tt

[RPSharman]

I don't know how easy it would be to build, but a separate "for sale" section and "want to buy" section would eliminate confusion.

And in the "for sale" section, mandatory fields would be great.

Real name

Price

Picture

S/N (if applicable)

Original purchase date and seller

Condition

Anything else beyond that is just standard "buyer beware".

Or... keep it as it is. I'm not convinced it's broken!

[ProSound]

Or... keep it as it is. I'm not convinced it's broken!

I don't think it is broken either I have sold and bought many items with zero issues common sense seems to work for me.

But I do think

Real Name

Item Location

Pictures and S/N

would be great

[LarryF]

Moderating is extra work for Jeff but that's his decision. He would need to disclaim any responsibility including the ability to read, make reasoned judgments or general mental competence. Otherwise, somebody that has been screwed will look for the nearest individual to blame, not including themselves, of course.

The good ideas are (most cribbed from RPSharman):

Price

Picture

S/N (if applicable)

Original purchase date and seller

Condition including guarantee or as is

Separate want to buy and want to sell sections

The real name has pros and cons as in "I have 50 grand of gear in my house. Midnight acquisitions welcomed." If it were moderated, the real name could be with the moderator like ebay does or on the listing if the seller is ok with that.

Good thread.

Best,

Larry F

[geordi]

I'm less concerned with real names in public as I have dealt with selling / buying on multiple forums, and THIS is the only forum where people get bent if they don't think they know someone's real name... Even just for normal posts.

I'm not convinced that the sale section is broken either, I haven't had any problems with any of the transactions, and we seem to have done a decent job noticing dodgy listings pretty dang fast.

The only change I would request (and I have no idea how to implement it) is just a simple choice of syntax for the titles: FS or WTB. Putting "wts" instead can be confusing if you are just quickly scanning the titles, your listing might be missed. I disagree about splitting the section up, having the WTB listings in with the FS makes it easy for someone to see who might be looking for what they are about to sell... OR, I sometimes will browse the WTB listings just to see if someone wants what I have, that maybe I hadn't considered selling.

Where I'm at then... I don't think it's broke, why fit it until it is?

[John Blankenship]

Count me among the many who have bought and sold here with highly satisfactory results.

I agree with much that's been said already.

Beyond that, here's a thought: Since the primary purpose of this forum is the interaction, communication, and peer support of forum members, and the buy/sell section is only intended as an added convenience for those members, perhaps only active, participating members should be allowed to list anything in the buy/sell section. No more of this joining just to use the site as a sales venue. That's what eBay is for.

How this policy would be policed, I'm not sure. If it could be implemented without causing Jeff more work or grief, that would be ideal. A person should have been a member for several months -- or a year, even -- and have participated a worthwhile amount in forum discussions, perhaps, at least 50 or 100 posts -- other than buying or selling.

If this could be easily implemented (some kind of software trigger?), it would help keep the forum's focus where it belongs.

[Jeff Wexler]

Well, thank you all for the prompt and thoughtful responses. I'm inclined to go with the general consensus, repeated several times by many, that it really isn't broken so why try and fix it. There really aren't any fixes that are easy to implement within this forum/discussion group format, and most of those fixes would probably not be very effective. What I will do is put up a set of guidelines that we would like people to follow when posting to this particular section --- this will be a help to those who are already being quite honest and sensible; it probably will not have any affect on those few times where we have had real fraud and scams.

[John Blankenship]

...it probably will not have any affect on those few times where we have had real fraud and scams.

But, it will probably help to make them more obvious, since following the guidelines will be more difficult for them.

In reference to my earlier post, maybe even a statement that the buy/sell section is intended as a convenience for participating members.

[Christian Spaeth]

I totally agree with Larry's suggestions.

I'm also not so convinced with the obsession many here have with providing real names. I don't think anybody should be kept from selling something just because he wants to keep his identity private. You don't see real names on Ebay or other places until you actually purchase an item. There's enough Big Brother out there already.

As for Common Sense, I would suggest anyone replying to For Sale threads that they deem suspicious, to try and remain polite and not judge the book by its cover.

The internet is not the real world, and on many forums people are quicker to throw around insults than they would in a real life scenario. I always liked this forum because there seems (seemed?) to be a certain etiquette of communication here. I hope it will stay like that. Let's be kind to each other!

[Philip Perkins]

I'm among the folks who have bought and sold successfully on this forum, and would like to see the B+S section continue. But I think it is important to understand that it IS an internet forum, so even though this forum is generally a decorous place one still has to be careful of whom one is dealing with. The JW B+S section is at its best when there is a sale between two people who post frequently, there is a built in trust. When someone no one has heard of, who has just joined the forum, has no posting history and was not introduced by anyone posts a sale notice for some expensive gear, everyone needs to be wary, but not necessarily persecuting. I think a polite word to the poster that in order to sell to this group of people the above list of info is considered necessary. If they don't want to provide it we can't make them, and then it is up to individuals whether they want to take the risk of buying from them. As I see it, Jeff and JWS provide a forum, but should not feel like guaranteeing the legitimacy of the sales is their problem. Closely moderating the forum in that way is too much to ask of Jeff. If sellers do not respond to requests for pix and info, then don't buy from them. Haranguing anonymous posters/sellers further is just feeding the trolls.

phil p

[greg sextro]

I think enough of us can pitch in with the moderation. If a post goes up without at least real name, serial number, location, anyone can immediately reply that these things are required.

I too have had no problem buying and selling on this site, but I pretty much only deal with people I know are real and trustable people...

Greg

[taylormadeaudio]

great, it seems we have a consensus... when an unknown (new) participant tries to sell something here, we inform them how we roll -- ball's in their court, we can all get on with it.

I love this forum : )

~tt

[Olle Sjostrom]

Here's another vote for self policing and all other things stated above...

[Jon Gilbert]

One thing that works well on another forum I use is that sellers must have either contributed to the site, via the Paypal donation button, or have made a minimum of 100 posts.

It seems to put off idiots, and gives a real email address to the forum owners in case of any issues. Not fool proof to any degree, but another layer of defence. Also keeps a bit more money flowing into the site.

Moderation is a tricky issue, forums don't get much bigger than this without requiring a team (however small) of mods, it's a thankless task too!

[Soundwil]

Having bought and sold a few items in this section I am happy with the way things are. Common sense goes a long way.

You moderating it would be a waste of your time when you could be continuing to provide a fantastic forum and continuing with your contributions.

However I do feel that when an FS is posted the least that should be included in the post is:

"The good ideas are (most cribbed from RPSharman):

Price

Picture

S/N (if applicable)

Original purchase date and seller

Condition including guarantee or as is

Separate want to buy and want to sell sections"

as stated by LarryF and others.

I wouldn't worry unduly about this section, we're all grown up gals and boys around here - I'd hope.

Thank you for my nightly read.

[old school]

One thing that works well on another forum I use is that sellers must have either contributed to the site, via the Paypal donation button, made a minimum of 100 posts.

It seems to put of idiots, and gives a real email address to the forum owners in case of any issues. Not fool proof to any degree, but another layer of defence. Also keeps a bit more money flowing into the site.

Moderation is a tricky issue, forums don't get much bigger than this without requiring a team (however small) of mods, it's a thankless task too!

There's a lot of good ideas from our regular members Jeff. I could have quoted many of them but I chose Jon's because it address's the real participants from the rest who seem to join only to buy or sell gear here. Some even try to scam us at times. I like photo's n serial #'s and date of purchase and sellers price. That's not asking to much of any seller IMO. As for real names, well i like them but that is really between the buyer and seller. I have never sold anything here, but I have bought 3 or 4 items from our regulars and have been pleased with the results.

CrewC

[bleueblancrouge]

don't know how the info will be used, but having to give a donation is a cool idea. a mandatory symbolic 1$ donation will give up those email addresses. i have no problem with that. and who knows, you just might get more that the 1$ suggestion.

the general rules info that you have posted to the buy-sell page is the right idea to start with jeff. standard stuff.

hope it runs smooth from here on in.

P.

[OmahaAudio]

I've bought and sold things here with great success. Yes, it's always better to have a seller "of repute" with a real name, numbers, pictures, etc. but who's to say that any of that is real? I've been buying and selling things on EBay (code name: TimePixDC) for 11 years and have almost 300 positive feedbacks but unless Jeff is willing to set up a similar system it's always going to be a bit hit or miss. The fact that this site is a self-selected sub-set of humanity tends to increase the reliability of FS postings but it's always going to be buyer beware.