soundtrane Posted August 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Alexander... >I'll start this comment by saying I am in no way considered a pro. I've been working out of a bag for my career and am still building my kit. I am a pro, i have a full gear package for feature film in which i remain heavily invested and continue to do so before every project i work on. >It seems as though (Chris?) might have been in a similar situation. The budget was small, he was making a conservative amount daily. When on set was probably given help from P.A's that were most likely locals. Oh, the budget was low, right? of course. Enough to fly a guy in and put him up for whatever number of days, but they did not have the budget to hire an Indian pro to boom/third on the gig, even if it cost them say 50-100$ a day. Nice setup. Been there, seen it and have ever since not bothered to revisit. No thanks. A nice extension of this is when one has a 7 day shoot with a Steadicam for 5 days but no money for a boom op, forget the third. Why steadicam for so many days? After reading the screenplay, the question still remained valid. I said goodbye to them but not before telling them that they were dumb. I think this was about 10 years ago... Americans and non-resident Indians. Just one example... >I'm a bit surprised Chris would use someone who probably had little experience booming, but that's left up to his discretion. Is this discretion part of what one considers when one is pro? I leave this to your discretion. As for me, I would not be found even one day on a set without my boom op. We complement each other in the work we do together. Ask Jeff and Don Coufal about this. >I know from experience that 500 rupee's a day is a considerable amount for a lot of the families living on the street. Well, I am not going to argue economics with you guys, since you have really no clue. Let me say just one thing - my Boom Op or my 2nd Boom/Utility do NOT live on the street. >I'm sure if Chris had brought over a team that he regularly works with he would look out for them and their interests, making sure they were paid a decent wage. I strongly disagree with how you've decided to attack Chris's character. Ah... you are entitled to your disagreement bro, and I am to mine. I normally don't waste my breath. You can go check over my 1550 posts here. But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, and this certainly is one such time. >And I believe these forums are here to host everyone, including people outside of the sound department who might have interest in sound-related topics. I dont think i have said anything that negates this, if this is so important. >I've taken lower budget projects, simply because I'm fairly new to the industry and do not have the experience or credentials to charge what you, or most of the mixers on this page might. Good luck with your career, I did my time as well, and in my humble opinion i still do. And I believe 4800$ a week is a fair amount towards the work we do. in fact, it should be more like 6500$ a week really. I am sure there are many of my friends out here who will agree. However, I brought down my rates only because I liked the director, and wanted to do the project. There are LOTS and LOTS of low budget work out here - and sound guys who do it. I'd like to be excused now, as i said, I've done my bit in the past. >And from what I've read it seems as though you live in India. I was able to live in many of the different cities for under $5-10/day for housing and food. The cost of living is definitely different from that of the U.S. Of course, you can backpack your way through India for that kind of money, even though in these times, i'd say you'd need about 30$ minimum. I don't think one can equate backpacking with living really - can we? I'm sure you have a home in the US, with a kitchen and a toilet and a bed in it, and you dont live off a backpack and YMCA/hostel dorms? >You've taken a hostile stance and I hope you may ease up on Chris a bit. Bro, I've said what i wanted to say, and I'm not one of those people who regret what they have said the next day. I fully stand by what I wrote. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted August 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 <<been done, nothing unusual...and has even been much cheaper..>> ...and the results suck. Even non-Asian audiences are now privy to what India looks like even if they have not visited India. The authenticity of location, and most important - people is something that is overlooked when someone does what you say. Cheaper it may be, there are places, i know. But these places are not conducive to film making. In India, you can get lights, grips, gaffers, cam support, the equivalent of teamsters, etc - people IN the profession of film making. Yes, there are all kinds - from real cheap to real expensive - and as you say - you do get what you pay for. Imagine going to a country that has very little cinema or even local tv production and see what you'll get compared to this. --to be continued-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted August 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Ramsay: <<This doesn't have to be a race to the bottom. We are the one dept. that most Indie directors say they don't want to scrimp on.>> Yes, just because one is starting out to become pro eventually does not mean one has to push the ante to the bottom. The director spent a lot of time talking about sound and was quite concerned and knowledgeable about it. This is one of the reasons i wanted to do the project. -vin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Is there no negotiation at all for this? A "This is what we we will pay, not a dollar more!" situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 On the shoots I've been on my poor attendant was only getting Rs 500/day which is about 10 dollars. If you ever stood in front of me and told me that, and then either smiled or snickered, you would very quickly be on the ground Me. oh wait, maybe some of you won't consider me a "pro" yet. And it doesn't seem like we ever will. its sad and may be lame but when I've worked over there I've worked for a lot less than that. The projects I have done have been passion projects too so thats fine, and I gained experience, won an Indian award too so that never hurts. Well, then you are clearly an idiot. I would seriously be interested in this. But nobody would be interested in having you. on a side note VIN, what do Indian sound recordists make? And I'm not talking Resul, I know him. I know what he makes. I'm talking about the average production sound mixer out there. Tell me in Rs please. What would Resul say to you gloating about getting an assistant for $10/day? Maybe we should find out? Sorry if all of this seems harsh, but I believe this person to be made of absolute trash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 " Why would any professional do a job for so little " see, it depends... there are different levels of "professional", just as there are different levels of lawyers, engineers, and even PA's. but more significantly... " the one dept. that most Indie directors say they don't want to scrimp on. " in this case the producers have put their money n the table " director spent a lot of time talking about sound and was quite concerned and knowledgeable about it. " and the Director then put their money on the table... talk is free... " A "This is what we we will pay, not a dollar more!" " and so they won't get Vin. " but they did not have the budget to hire an Indian pro to boom/third on the gig, even if it cost them say 50-100$ a day. " tripping over dollars to pick up pennies...+ the rule: generally speaking, you get what you pay for... " a 7 day shoot with a Steadicam for 5 days but no money for a boom op, " that would be style over substance... " There are LOTS and LOTS of low budget work out here - and sound guys who do it. I'd like to be excused now, as i said, I've done my bit in the past. " exactly... " ...and the results suck. " ehh... not necessarily.A lot of old movies, shot in the USA way back when, still hold up very well; GungaDin comes to mind. in judging the 2011 college Emmy's, we saw, and awarded, an excellent movie that takes place in very rural Iraq, looked great, and was shoot in Soithern California. The Hurt Locker was not shot in Afghanistan... I've also seen movies shot somewhere only because the location was cheaper, and that sucked, too... " I gained experience, won an Indian award too so that never hurts. " you won the award ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Burstein Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) >I'll start this comment by saying I am in no way considered a pro. I've been working out of a bag for my career and am still building my kit. I am a pro, i have a full gear package for feature film in which i remain heavily invested and continue to do so before every project i work on. This might be the reason why I felt the need to point out a few things. On your union shows even the P.A's get paid hundreds (usually $200/day I believe). There are so many shows that do not pay P.A's at all, period. They will work for the experience. I would not use a P.A as my boom operator, but after rereading Chris's post, he did not do that either. He said he had a boom op. and an attendant (which I would argue is a P.A). His attendant was being paid $10/day. While I think that's silly, the reality is that P.A's work for free a lot of the time in lower budget productions. >Oh, the budget was low, right? of course. Enough to fly a guy in and put him up for whatever number of days, but they did not have the budget to hire an Indian pro to boom/third on the gig, even if it cost them say 50-100$ a day. Nice setup. Been there, seen it and have ever since not bothered to revisit. No thanks. You're describing the same condition's in which this thread was originally about. The gig they offered you mirrors this. You have every right to turn this down, but as the Senator said, and perhaps a few other readers might agree that some sound mixers would work for the $2500/week. Another mixer made the great point that a producer has the money to fund what you need to properly do your job, and it's on you to get it out of them in negotiation's. Chris did not do this, and perhaps he'll learn from it. Personally I've asked for $100/day for a boom op. and I was again told it was not in the budget. Even after explaining the importance of it, the production decided to go with someone else. I'm still learning, but I can see that it varies from production to production. You're right in that they should hash out a couple hundred extra for something as necessary as a boom operator, but it doesn't always work out. >I'm a bit surprised Chris would use someone who probably had little experience booming, but that's left up to his discretion. Is this discretion part of what one considers when one is pro? I leave this to your discretion. As for me, I would not be found even one day on a set without my boom op. We complement each other in the work we do together. Ask Jeff and Don Coufal about this. There's plenty of work to be done that doesn't have room for an extra body. I've been on set where I've been able to negotiate bringing on a boom operator and the camera op had no assistants. Sounds crazy right? But there are specific shows where being discrete takes priority, and as a professional we have to understand the situation. You may never go anywhere without a boom operator, but it would be naive to discredit... say... the bag mixers who will work solo. >I'm sure if Chris had brought over a team that he regularly works with he would look out for them and their interests, making sure they were paid a decent wage. I strongly disagree with how you've decided to attack Chris's character. Ah... you are entitled to your disagreement bro, and I am to mine. I normally don't waste my breath. You can go check over my 1550 posts here. But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, and this certainly is one such time. That sounds tedious and I don't know what I would gain from doing that. And I don't know what you mean by do what I have to do, this certainly being one such time. >And I believe these forums are here to host everyone, including people outside of the sound department who might have interest in sound-related topics. I dont think i have said anything that negates this, if this is so important. I remember reading you telling Chris he should not be a part of this forum group. If I'm wrong I apologize. >I've taken lower budget projects, simply because I'm fairly new to the industry and do not have the experience or credentials to charge what you, or most of the mixers on this page might. Good luck with your career, I did my time as well, and in my humble opinion i still do. And I believe 4800$ a week is a fair amount towards the work we do. in fact, it should be more like 6500$ a week really. I am sure there are many of my friends out here who will agree. However, I brought down my rates only because I liked the director, and wanted to do the project. There are LOTS and LOTS of low budget work out here - and sound guys who do it. I'd like to be excused now, as i said, I've done my bit in the past. I can't tell if you genuinely wish me luck on my career...But if you do, thank you. >Of course, you can backpack your way through India for that kind of money, even though in these times, i'd say you'd need about 30$ minimum. I don't think one can equate backpacking with living really - can we? I'm sure you have a home in the US, with a kitchen and a toilet and a bed in it, and you dont live off a backpack and YMCA/hostel dorms? I know it depends on the region. I was mostly in Kolkata, skipping Mumbai and New Delhi. You had mentioned cost of living and I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. I think anything under 6 months is not living. If we're talking about 7 weeks for a production, you're not quite living there. I'm sure many people disagree with me though haha. Edited August 9, 2012 by Alexander Burstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 " I was again told it was 'not in the budget'. " wow, what a phrase... let me have 30 seconds with your spreadsheet, (type-type-type-click) and it will "be in the budget"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAudioSynthesist Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Chris - here is a reply to your personal message to me on this group. <<<<<<Hi Vin. I believe we spoke here once or twice. I'd be very interested in taking this project. Can you provide me with the contact info for the producer here in the US. I can get the sound done on that budget and walk away happy and yes, I'm America. Thanks! Chris>>>>>> You dont deserve to be a part of this group really. Your are willing to degrade the value of your services (that is if you are really a pro, since you have questioned this yourself already). You are also willing to go hand in hand with exploitation of professionals in other countries, or do with what your producer offers - an unemployed youth who is not really capable of doing the job, but just about - for - as you mention 10$ a day. What your association with such a person does to the quality of your work - you seem to allay by saying the films you worked had momentum at film festivals and you got an award out here. Great, truly, since you deserve another one - one which i shall give to you in person - a big one in the ass. You want to know how much the Indian "recordist" charges, and that you know Resul Pookutty (and how much he charges). GFY man, I know how much YOU charge. As for getting the info about this production - be sure - I will NEVER send it to someone such as you. I know of a lot of other REAL professionals out there in YOUR country who will not withstand unnecessary exploitation or work with handicaps. -vin hey man, i've got an idea: get mad about it. no really, get MAD. to clear things up: I'm not the one paying my attendant. nor did i hire him. i do know however that he is also from a poor family and is pretty happy with his wage. my sound designer and I always give him and the boom op a bonus at the end of each gig. THAT comes from our pockets. not to mention all the snacks, cokes, cold beverages, candy, food, etc that comes from me daily. also: my boom op is not just some PA off the street. he's done countless movies and has more experience than i do. he has saved my ass and taught me a lot. he was on slumdog as well as many other movies whose titles escape my memory right now. Vin, I'll start this comment by saying I am in no way considered a pro. I've been working out of a bag for my career and am still building my kit. The productions i've been attached with have not had an adequate budget for a utility, and when offered a P.A to help, I will sometimes gladly accept or respectfully decline. I do not ask what that P.A is getting paid and make up for their almost definite low rate, yet they are acting as my utility. If the project i'm working on does not have a budget for a boom operator (which is most definitely worked out in advance) and I get offered help from a P.A to boom for me, I will decline 95% of the time. It seems as though (Chris?) might have been in a similar situation. The budget was small, he was making a conservative amount daily. When on set was probably given help from P.A's that were most likely locals. I'm a bit surprised Chris would use someone who probably had little experience booming, but that's left up to his discretion. I know from experience that 500 rupee's a day is a considerable amount for a lot of the families living on the street. I'm sure if Chris had brought over a team that he regularly works with he would look out for them and their interests, making sure they were paid a decent wage. I strongly disagree with how you've decided to attack Chris's character. And I believe these forums are here to host everyone, including people outside of the sound department who might have interest in sound-related topics. I've taken lower budget projects, simply because I'm fairly new to the industry and do not have the experience or credentials to charge what you, or most of the mixers on this page might. And from what I've read it seems as though you live in India. I was able to live in many of the different cities for under $5-10/day for housing and food. The cost of living is definitely different from that of the U.S. You've taken a hostile stance and I hope you may ease up on Chris a bit. Best, Alexander Thank you Alexander. seems we might have similar view points and/or experiences. Not all of us here seem to do this work JUST for the money. even if money didn't exist, i'd stil be doing (award winning) sound and i'm sure you would too. If you ever stood in front of me and told me that, and then either smiled or snickered, you would very quickly be on the ground first of all, i never smiled or snickerd, emoticons are not perfect. second of all, no i wouldn't be on the ground but you might if you tried to put me there. And it doesn't seem like we ever will. Well, then you are clearly an idiot. get mad. But nobody would be interested in having you. actually, yes they would. and yes they are. What would Resul say to you gloating about getting an assistant for $10/day? Maybe we should find out? you don't know him. don't assume anything. Sorry if all of this seems harsh, but I believe this person to be made of absolute trash. actually, i'm made of atoms and subatomic particles...just like you. ewww.... i'd also like to thank the Senator for being "fair" and "mature". almost always has something of value to say even if he says it in a harsh way. thanks for not stooping down to name calling and to answer one of your questions: yes I did get the award... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAudioSynthesist Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 i'll add a friendly reminder: this is a forum on the internet. our words have no "tone of voice" because they only exist here as print, not audible dialog. we should be careful in our assumptions of what others mean. i never meant any harm to anyone. i'm just looking for work in f*cked up economy. i want more experience. i want to learn. i want to travel. these gigs have more value to me than just money. for all you guys know i'm a rich kid who just wants to gain experience, like a king or rich man who works the fields for the experience alone. not everything in life is about money, principles, ethics, etc. if someone offers you a job and you're not doing anything else and you think you might have fun or learn something even if it is low pay then why turn it down? oh and vin, in responce to your name calling i'd call you a laude kabal or a chutmariga or a lund fakir or something along those lines but i wont lower myself to your level, even though you're acting like a gandu. chalo, piss off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 'If you ever stood in front of me and told me that, and then either smiled or snickered, you would very quickly be on the ground first of all, i never smiled or snickerd, emoticons are not perfect. second of all, no i wouldn't be on the ground but you might if you tried to put me there.' Arsehole of the day goes to TheAudioSynthesist who not only is happy to act like a total prick, now wants be a keyboard warrior! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAudioSynthesist Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 'If you ever stood in front of me and told me that, and then either smiled or snickered, you would very quickly be on the ground first of all, i never smiled or snickerd, emoticons are not perfect. second of all, no i wouldn't be on the ground but you might if you tried to put me there.' Arsehole of the day goes to TheAudioSynthesist who not only is happy to act like a total prick, now wants be a keyboard warrior! haha, not really. these guys attacked me first. i'm just standing up for myself - i'm the one who responded in red. what should i do instead? turn the other cheak? pfff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 No, you should never post the stuff you've posted in the first place, there is only one way to take that emoticon you used to belittle the poor sod who had to work for you for peanuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAudioSynthesist Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 No, you should never post the stuff you've posted in the first place, there is only one way to take that emoticon you used to belittle the poor sod who had to work for you for peanuts. oh, soooo sorry Jon Gilbert for using an emoticon in the wrong way. in all reality, i'm used to the way it looks on facebook (which is more of a sad look than what seems to be perceived as a "snicker") i guess my emot was lost in the translation of the internet. my bad. i should burn in hell for that. you guys have no idea the relationship i have with my crew over there. they are bad ass hard working mofo's and i respect the hell out of them. again, i don't choose the rate and just like us, they can decline a job if they want to too. but obviously, its worth it to them so they do it. even though i've been there 3 times i don't really have a grasp on the cost of living and what is "normal" pay out there. hence why i asked vin what a mixer makes out there. some of you guys are a tough crowd, jeez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Keep digging, keep digging. I think we've all got the measure of you now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAudioSynthesist Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Keep digging, keep digging. I think we've all got the measure of you now. you know me better than my mother. do i give a shit what you think? uhhhhh, let me think about that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Yup, keep digging.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAudioSynthesist Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Yup, keep digging.... actually i'm dancing right now. i'll start digging when i have the need to bury something. in the meantime, get mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Me mad? You're the one cursing and calling people names, I'm just observing someone out of his depth floundering, it's fun in a sick way, the perfect way to wind down after a busy day at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAudioSynthesist Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Me mad? You're the one cursing and calling people names, I'm just observing someone out of his depth floundering, it's fun in a sick way, the perfect way to wind down after a busy day at work. dude, go back and re-read it. i haven't cursed or called anyone names. i was the one being called names and being cursed at. i advise you again, get mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Dude, if I may use that tired epithet, if I get mad, which I don't that often these days, I won't bother doing it with some patronising little prick on a forum, I'll save it for real life. When it counts. Dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAudioSynthesist Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Dude, if I may use that tired epithet, if I get mad, which I don't that often these days, I won't bother doing it with some patronising little prick on a forum, I'll save it for real life. When it counts. Dude. i feel as if you may be starting to get mad. i never posted anything offensive to anyone here yet a bunch of you guys want to "drop me to the ground" and call me all sorts of childish names. again, i'm dancing while you guys are....well, probably getting mad. <-----for you Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAudioSynthesist Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 for the record: Jon and I are cool after a few PMs. i appreciate his wilingness to settle any dispute. also for the record: i'm not here to fight anyone. i really don't get what it is that i said that set all these people off. again, its the internet. there is no tone of voice. i'm really not that bad of a guy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 It's true, he just needed some good old fashioned English advice And for the record, he owes me a pint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAudioSynthesist Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 It's true, he just needed some good old fashioned English advice And for the record, he owes me a pint. i thought you just offered to buy me one. jk. good times. good times... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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