American Indie film in India

[Jeff Wexler]

"Can't we all just get along?" I guess not.

[ccsnd]

Also keep in mind this is the person who's first post (or very close to it) on this forum was in the work section. His post stated he wanted to move to a new area and offered low ball rates to anyone in that area that would hire him.

also.

You say this guy is poor, and from a poor family. That makes it ok for him to make $10 a day? why? Because thats more money than he usually makes? WHAT A SORRY ASSHOLE OF AN EXCUSE.

At least you give him your candy. Do you bury it somewhere around the set and make him search for it?

[TheAudioSynthesist]

He is willing to take a job when nothing else is available to him. I'm the same. Nothing wrong with that.

[Alexander Burstein]

At least you give him your candy. Do you bury it somewhere around the set and make him search for it?

I laughed way too hard at this. I'm ashamed.

[ccsnd]

He is willing to take a job when nothing else is available to him. I'm the same. Nothing wrong with that.

And that is why you don't get better jobs.

And it's also why people think they can get a sound guy for 150/day with gear.

[TheAudioSynthesist]

And that is why you don't get better jobs.

And it's also why people think they can get a sound guy for 150/day with gear.

They can. Get mad about it.

[ccsnd]

They can. Get mad about it.

They can because terrible people like you exist.

I will get mad about it. Come up with something else.

with an attitude like yours you will never be anything more than a discount, sub-par, shady ass blow-joe of guy anyway.

[TheAudioSynthesist]

No no. Just get mad. That's all.

[TheAudioSynthesist]

O

[ccsnd]

Im going to continue this over here because I don't want Dave's thread to get derailed and this thread already has this conversation going.

But mr audiosynthesist,

You can bet your ass that if a producer, who in the past, helped me to rebuilt my life after my home with all of my belongings in it burned to the ground. Gave me everything I had,(clothes, food, someplace to stay, etc) and asked for nothing back in return, If that producer asked me to help him out on a project, I would do it.

This is hardly "doing passion projects for free"

[Marc Wielage]

What is this? RAMPS? You guys gotta calm the F down. Jesus...

I consider Vin to be a very good guy, but at the same time, I don't think it's proper form to reveal a private email. However, I do see your point. All people accomplish by taking ultra-low-paid jobs is cutting their own throats and others.

[Olle Sjostrom]

It's not just making producers think they can get a mixer for $150 a day w equipment, it's about devaluing yourself cause you think "you don't have enough experience" or whatever.

That argument is invalid.

If you were to take a job at McD or whatever, which, believe it or not, some people actually have a passion about; service. They would never settle for 8 hours a day for free or low, just for the experience! Think about it

The reason we as beginners feel that this entertainment industry is worth working for free or low, is that we think it's the perfect combination of passion and work. But the REALITY, is that this is a JOB, just like the guys at McD. We are passionate. The majority of people working at McD aren't, but they exist.

Your value as a WORKER for the entertainment industry, is a significant one, to the producer, the director, the dp and last but not least; YOU. You are the reason the movie sounds good. Isn't that something to be proud of? And be paid for? By devaluing yourself you are hurting the industry, and YOURSELF. Your own economy, your own value in yourself...

I speak from experience. I admit to doing work for free, only now I know they were student films and/or films noone profited from (because the movie biz in Sweden is a bit... Different). But mu self esteem sunk every day from working for free. My thoughts went; I work for free to get experience, and I love it > I work for free and I get no more experience cus these movies are getting dull and boring > I work for free.... Sigh. > I can't get a paid job anymore cus I worked for free. I swear the next time I'm billing these mofos. > I suck.

Simple mathematics: devalue yourself by not charging for your services > your life will suck, eventually.

I now have a good business, a family and a nice fresh apartment. And that is NOT because I worked for free before. I started charging more and looking for new clients and a new market.

I have never worked for free or for a low pay on commercials or features. Even the "low budget" ones. It earned me a reputation and a self esteem. Not even that can a low budget pay for.

India is a great place. And i understand you want the trip and the "experience" (which you've already had three times over...?). Then, is it an experience anymore? At some point, you have to start taking pride in your work and not "being nice" to the people paying. Being nice to them IS NOT helping YOU. You should turn that into an argument, saying "I know the place, I even speak some (Dunno...) and I can really help you" and for that, they should pay you more. Don't be nice. I've even heard that from an Indian person; "don't be a good host".

Let's bury the guns and not get mad. You're only hurting yourself, and I don't like watching self abuse. The next time you take a job, think about your value.

Cheers!

[TheAudioSynthesist]

Look guys, I get it. I really do. But not all of us are fortunate enough to be gettIng the types of gigs that pay properly. I know it pisses some of you guys off that there are guys like me willing to do ultra low projects but you gotta understand that when you're poor, like me, and you gotta eat and gotta pay bills and DON'T want to be earning money at McD it is suddenly and enevitably better to be earning SOME money doing what you love to do.

None of you know me personally or have any idea what I'm going through personally and therefor have no right to assume that I'm trying to slit my ore your throats or lower the status quo just because I want to do the jobs that none of you want to do. I'm currently in a situation that I WILL NOT share with any of you and I have personal reasons for wanting to work.

I didn't join this forum to start fights or keyboard wars or piss any of you off. If you look at my posts I'm just newbie who wants to work. I've been doing this professionally for six years and I don't feel like I know enough about all this yet to be turning down any work, especially with the situation that I'm in which, again, I won't share with you.

I don't feel that any of you have the right to call me a "fucking whore" or a "bottom feeder", "scum", "shitty person", "prick" or whatever else I've been called here. I may be a newb compare to most of you but thy gives you no right to talk the shit you're talking.

If you look at anything I've ever posted I never bring up anything negative unless I'm being forced to defend myself which is what is happening here in this thread.

You're mad at me because you think that it's guys like me that have created this whole "rate problem" but in reality it's the producers. I get your logic about not allowing them to get away with these kinds of things an that we should band together and stand up for rates and our positions as valuable members of the crew. But sometimes you just gotta keep working. Keep the ball moving. You think I want to work for nothing or for peanuts everyday? Of course not. But I also don't like being idle for too long and again, I'm fighting a personal battle which none of you deserve the right to know about.

So, if you think I'm the enemy here think again. This goes way deeper than that. Society, the monetary system, our government, the rich, producers, etc are really th ones to blame. You gotta remember, I'm a sound guy, just like you. I value sound and would give up my sight to save my hearing if it came down to it. If I want to work for ten dollars a day or six hundred that's up to me. Obviously we would all like more but it's not always available to all of us and sometimes you just have to put food on the table.

I'll end by asking you to ask yourselves, "who the fuck am I to tell anyone how to live their lives?" the answer is: no one. You're no one to tell anyone how to live his or her life or carry on with their business. And if you think you are, I kindly ask you to fuck off.

Thank you and good night.

[Olle Sjostrom]

Wow

[TheAudioSynthesist]

My bad Vin, I guess I put my foot in my mouth on this one. Sorry about this. The reason why I mentioned this was that 8 years ago I worked for a financial institution that outsourced quite a bit of work to India. My department manager at the time was sent over there to train the new associates that we hired. When he got back he told me that the annual salary for the average employee was around $4500. I couldn't believe the difference in salaries but it made business sense as to why jobs where headed over there.

Again, this was 8 years ago and my comment above was based on old information. I didn't know you were based out of India and that you would know more about this then anyone else. I can see how my comment makes me sound like a douche bag so for that I apologize.

In any case, I wish you the best of luck on this deal and hope it all works out for you!!

I found this very humbling. We can all learn from the way this man apologized am tried set set things right. Thank you for that Michael.

[TheAudioSynthesist]

Michael, forgive me, but you are talking about the movie industry here. Why on earth should your comment be on "a different job field"?

Are you referring to Call-centers or BPOs?

As for old information - i dont think Indian professionals in the movie industry were available for so cheap anyways, even 2 decades ago. Your old information is inaccurate.

While I accept your apology, I really think we need to think before we type.

I couldn't help but bring this up too. I going back through this thread trying to re-read and evaluate if maybe I'm completely wrong. This is the first thing I stumble upon which deserves more attention. Michael clearly apologized and was cool about it and look at the attitude on VIN here. Am I wrong? Do you guys see that as being NOT cool? I don't think it's cool an this kind of energy that fuels these threads to become the way they are.

[Olle Sjostrom]

If it were the other way around, an Indian indie feature shooting in USA, and they hired an Indian sound guy for a fraction of the price of a US mixer, there would be fire.

Just saying.

And comparing a call center with the film industry is apples and oranges, obviously. Vin has a temper, but his reaction could be justified because, No one has asked him how the movie business works in India, how things run and what things cost, he has given only hints. You, Chris, just opened yourself and explained your situation which sheds a new light on things. If you asked vin to do the same thing you'd probably understand his temper as well. He was being accused with facts of his country that you know a bit about, but not the whole story obviously (b/c you don't live there) and so obviously he will get pissed...

Btw I hope you didn't take my previous post as an attack, I understand your situation and I won't be asking any questions about it. I was only trying to shed a light on the "you" factor of the whole phenomenon which is often forgotten. Self esteem is extremely important in our lone wolf industry.

And if you've been in the business for six years, you're a pro. With the right self esteem.

[Dan Ostroff]

Chris:

As a relative newcomer as well, might be speaking from lesser experience here but my advice to you is be grateful for the opportunity to have access to this message board and the wealth of knowledge & experience shared here. Do less talking (writing), more listening (reading), and learning. Respect those that have been doing this far longer than you (and me), people that understand the industry, the technical in's and out's, and most likely what is best for all of us trying to making a living doing sound for picture. Be humble and work hard.

[studiomprd]

" yes I did get the award... "

congratulations.

[ccsnd]

I've worked in India 3 times on 3 feature films. No way 17,500 could get you a 3 person American crew BUT, you could get an American Sound Mixer and 2 Indian attendants - (1 boom and 1 attendant).

On the shoots I've been on my poor attendant was only getting Rs 500/day which is about 10 dollars.

You're mad at me because you think that it's guys like me that have created this whole "rate problem" but in reality it's the producers. I get your logic about not allowing them to get away with these kinds of things an that we should band together and stand up for rates and our positions as valuable members of the crew. But sometimes you just gotta keep working. Keep the ball moving. You think I want to work for nothing or for peanuts everyday? Of course not. But I also don't like being idle for too long and again, I'm fighting a personal battle which none of you deserve the right to know about.

you're intent was very clearly that you wanted to pocket as much of that as you could and screw your two indian attendants. Why else would it not get you an american crew, but would get you an indian crew? You then proved it by gloating that your guy gets $10/day and that he is happy with that because he is poor.

[ccsnd]

Of course not. But I also don't like being idle for too long and again, I'm fighting a personal battle which none of you deserve the right to know about.

Then perhaps you should go find yourself a regular job to fill that idle time until work picks up rather than trying to travel everyplace and undercutting other mixers.

[Henchman]

Awards don't pay bills.

I never want to get a gig because Im the cheapest guy, I want to get hired because the client values my work, and because of my reputation.

And if a client values both of those, they will have no problem paying accordingly.

When it's been slow, I've picked up lower paying , non-union gigs, mixing reality TV etc. but they have never paid less than union scale.

And I won't mix for less than union scale.

I still get the calls.

[soundtrane]

OK...

Now:

First - to Mark:

Dear Mark,

Apologies for putting a private message out in public, I for one appreciate the ethics of privacy. I apologize once again, Mark.

Second - to Jeff

Dear Jeff,

I sincerely apologize for losing my temper. However, i think this was justified. I know that you know me well enough to allow me this space, which I do believe is at times getting misused by some people who simply don't have the professional ethics to be here. I think it does not matter if one is not yet an experienced professional, but if one is getting paid for a job, he/she should exude the professionalism in the work. I believe Chris (notwithstanding his attitude) was totally unprofessional when he accepted a gig that offered him a person as an assistant on the job and paid him 10$ a day.

On every feature that I do, i try to accommodate an intern - someone who has recently finished with film school - and i mention clearly that the person is not going to be paid by production. However, even before the intern appears on the set, I make it clear to production that he/she should be allowed to be here, and be given the treatment as a unit member, even if they don't have to pay for it. The intern is entitled to all meals/etc, and if it is a late night, I ensure the intern has cab fare to get back home, which i pay myself.

If it is workable, I try to include the intern on my next gig, this time properly paid and as a member of my department. After spending some time with me as an intern, people usually go out and start working on their own. When i get to hear this from them, i am glad, the only thing i warn them against is to NOT work for lesser than what they know the value of the work is.

I think there is a sensible way to do things, and for Chris, if he thinks coming here and working on a gig for less money is the way to gain experience, so be it. Everyone for himself…

Jeff, I think we understand each other well, so I'll stop writing to you and rather address someone else here who doesn't have a clue…

Third - to Chris:

You said it - you are looking for work in a fucked up economy. I don't want to deny you this. You want to know what an Indian sound mixer makes? I'll never tell you, because the next thing you will do, while trying to survive in a fucked up economy and living within personal life-strife and putting food on the table - is you will come here and undercut the Indian sound mixer. Why don't you come here and be my assistant on my next gig - i'll pay you more than 10$, give you all the chocolates you can eat, get you a proper bed to sleep in, even get your laundry done when you are on the job.

You say you want to experience life, travel, etc etc. But you should have some professional ethics man. You say you are (not yet) a pro. I think you are a pro ever since you started getting money for what you do. You may be rightly called a pro with less experience as of now.

I have spent many many months, even whole years waiting and looking for work. During these periods if someone offered me a gig for less money I would not accept it. I have done my time, and i am saying it again. Yet, i must mention - over the last 3 years, I have rejected at least 10 feature film projects, the last one being just a few months ago. There are people out here who take the job, do it for half the value and move on as if they have done nothing wrong. This is the crowd. I stand apart, in terms of my work, attitude, passion, knowledge, ethics, and whatever else.

Whether the general economy is fucked up or not, there is a problem with the movie industry. Everyone, however professional and experienced he/she may be - has faced the issue of lack of understanding towards sound. We get paid lesser than hair and makeup - someone here had mentioned. Sound work has been devalued more than ever in the last decade or so. The advent of small digital cameras has made film makers out of anyone, without an iota of effort to actually study and understand cinema.

Chris, i don't care what you think is ethical or what you do with your life, but if you try to write something out here which is clearly egregious I WILL engage with you in combat, I will cut you down. You could have taken back what you wrote, but you did not make any attempt to do so. Instead you tried to evoke sympathy for your state of being, and justified yourself in many other ways (reinterpreting the smiley, saying you gave the guy a "bonus", gave him chocolates, etc). All this simply does not cut it.

<also for the record: i'm not here to fight anyone. i really don't get what it is that i said that set all these people off. again, its the internet. there is no tone of voice. i'm really not that bad of a guy... >

Chris, i don't think you are a bad guy. Live on, your way and you may find out after all what it takes. But sympathy for now - forget it.

<I found this very humbling. We can all learn from the way this man apologized am tried set set things right. Thank you for that Michael. >

<Michael clearly apologized and was cool about it and look at the attitude on VIN here. Am I wrong? Do you guys see that as being NOT cool? I don't think it's cool an this kind of energy that fuels these threads to become the way they are. >

Oh, maybe you have something to learn from Michael? You need to re-read the thread again and maybe again. I didn't raise a cudgel against Michael (read my response to what he wrote that he retracted on), but i DID raise one against you. You're still thinking you are on top of it all, or at times you try to be humble and ask for sympathy for your state of being.

The next time you come to India, obviously on a tourist visa but to work here, come and look me up. I'll show you something about life that you don't have a clue about.

For the time being, try reading what some other people have written in response to you and try to make some sense of it.

-vin

[studiomprd]

" (not yet) a pro. I think you are a pro ever since you started getting money for what you do. "

this has broader implications than this thread, and it is true, if you are paid to do something, if you make your living doing something, then you are a pro.

" you come to India, obviously on a tourist visa but to work here, "

this also has important implications, and does go to ethics, if not legalities...

[TheAudioSynthesist]

Vin. I will look you up next time I'm there. We'll have a few pitchers of king fisher at the red box in Andheri...on me. I'll explain everything to you if you'd like. If not, we will just get to know each other. Maybe you can educate me on how things work in the Indian film industry. For me, I just showed up. I didn't make any decisions about rates or crew, I was just happy to be there. Do I think it's right that my attendant gets so little? No but I was told that is normal. I don't know if that's a lie or not. I don't live there. These are Marathi films btw. Not Hindi. So they are super low budget. And the smiley thing was genuine. Look at the Facebook version. It's kind of sad looking and that's the website that I use that particular emoticon on. If you don't believe that or anything else I say that's fine. I'm not going to spend more time trying to convince you.

Look, I don't think you're a bad guy either but I don't think you should be so defensive either. I realize that you were defending your country an you industry but let go of so much pride man. "Hate begets hate. Only love can dispell hate." someone from your country said that a looooong time ago. His name was Siddhattha Gotama.

Cheers bro. I'm done with this.