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yet another tc idiot


Bob

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I have a shoot coming up using Panasonic hdx900 cameras. I know that Panasonic defaults to 29.97 for tc. In an email to the "tech person" I mentioned that and wanted verification that 29.97 would be fine and their response was:

"we only shoot 720 59.94 we expect you to do the same"

After a very polite email trying to explain to the person that they have no idea what they are talking about I get this:

"we shoot 720 59.94 drop frame this is in our style guide that we sent out we will have major issues if that is not adherd to"

How would you proceed. By the way the shoot is tomorrow and ive been trying to contact someone regarding this for over a week

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Hi Bob,

59.94 refers to the Video Frame Rate. The equivalent Timecode Frame Rate is 29.970. It they are shooting Drop frame then you must run 29.970 Drop Frame as well.

As has been mentioned, there is no 59.94 Timecode frame rate currently available (not part of the Standard).

I hope this helps

Charlie

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After a very polite email trying to explain to the person that they have no idea what they are talking about I get this: "we shoot 720 59.94 drop frame this is in our style guide that we sent out we will have major issues if that is not adherd to"

It's very sad when an ignorant person is in a position of power during production. [There's another T-shirt.]

Just stay calm and use 29.97 non-drop timecode. Check with the camera operator the morning of the shoot and make sure they're doing non-drop! If he doesn't know, punt.

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  • 2 weeks later...

And the hits keep on coming. I got an email request for an upcoming shoot to record audio at 720p50fps and TC at 50fps.

I explained to them 720/50 is a video resolution and TC at 50 doesn't exist - and I asked to be put in contact with their post person. They only responded was only "so you can't handle 50fps?"

WTF??

What is wrong with these people??

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And the hits keep on coming. I got an email request for an upcoming shoot to record audio at 720p50fps and TC at 50fps.

I explained to them 720/50 is a video resolution and TC at 50 doesn't exist - and I asked to be put in contact with their post person. They only responded was only "so you can't handle 50fps?"

WTF??

What is wrong with these people??

How much time do you have?

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And the hits keep on coming. I got an email request for an upcoming shoot to record audio at 720p50fps and TC at 50fps.

I explained to them 720/50 is a video resolution and TC at 50 doesn't exist - and I asked to be put in contact with their post person. They only responded was only "so you can't handle 50fps?"

WTF??

What is wrong with these people??

Too many production people know words but not what they mean. I should start recording some of the conversations I get into w production. Legal or not, it would be revealing.

CrewC

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And the hits keep on coming. I got an email request for an upcoming shoot to record audio at 720p50fps and TC at 50fps.

I explained to them 720/50 is a video resolution and TC at 50 doesn't exist - and I asked to be put in contact with their post person. They only responded was only "so you can't handle 50fps?"

WTF??

What is wrong with these people??

Nothing is wrong with them, they just don't know enough to know that they don't know enough. Something about the Peter principle and rising to their level of incompetence. I know this doesn't help with your frustration but it looks good in print. :wacko:

Eric

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I just had a (well-intentioned) camera guy insist they wanted 30 drop frame. *sigh*

I gave them 29.97DF and kept my mouth shut.

You should have asked him if he was shooting a program to be broadcast to a 1940s television set? You would also need to remind him that way back when TVs were an actual 30fps (black & white, prior to the broadcast of color), SMPTE time code hadn't been invented yet.

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It is discussions like this that make me glad that while I have a timecode capable recorder, I do not own any other TC gear yet, so I cannot be asked to do something clueless like these prize winning examples.

The only TC gear I am planning to purchase anyway would be a slate... Although with this level of skill evident, I don't know if I would trust the producer type to know which end faces the camera. Hoo boy, this approaches weapons-grade stupidity, capable of causing severe brain injuries with minimal exposure.

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You should have asked him if he was shooting a program to be broadcast to a 1940s television set? You would also need to remind him that way back when TVs were an actual 30fps (black & white, prior to the broadcast of color), SMPTE time code hadn't been invented yet.

John, you and I know that, but "ehhhh, these kids today..." I try to pick my battles when I can. Man, it's getting to the point where there are far more people working who can't remember a shoot before timecode existed. Post-production was really hard in the days before timecode. I'm amazed by so many people that look on timecode as an irritant, because to me, it made so many good things possible, I see it as a force for good on the earth -- not e-vil.

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  • 4 weeks later...

New to this forum so I may be jumping in a little later here.

FWIW - I blame Adobe, Panasonic (the worst offenders) and a few other other big companies who should know better, for much of this timecode confusion.

A surprising number of "kids" coming into the film world have a motion graphics background. Anybody who has had to learn After Effects without the benefit of a "real" video or film education will be forever confused about timecode and frame rates as Adobe often (but not always) rounds 29.97 to 30 and sometimes uses 29.97 to denote drop frame and 30 for non-drop. D'Oh!

And whoever decided that all Panasonic cameras should have 29.97 timecode regardless of frame rate should be shot. I understand the technical reason WHY they did it, but from the end-users point of view it makes no sense at all.

And lastly, after all those years of shooting DVCProHD, I am still not sure why 59.94 isn't called 29.97i. Can some one please explain that one to me?

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And lastly, after all those years of shooting DVCProHD, I am still not sure why 59.94 isn't called 29.97i. Can some one please explain that one to me?

I still haven't wrapped my head around the idea that, after all these years, the US hasn't just changed things to a solid 30fps instead of all this 29.97 (and 59.94 and drop-frame and non-drop-frame) BS brought about by a shitty work-around when it thought about going from B&W to color TV broadcasting... in 1953. The Europeans have it down with 25fps and don't have to do all these calculations with their attendant possibilities for error.

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I still haven't wrapped my head around the idea that, after all these years, the US hasn't just changed things to a solid 30fps instead of all this 29.97 (and 59.94 and drop-frame and non-drop-frame) BS brought about by a shitty work-around when it thought about going from B&W to color TV broadcasting... in 1953.

If you try to route 29.97 signals to a device with 30.00 reference, things blow up. (And also 30.00 video and 29.97 reference.) When the HD standards were being finalized in the late 1990s, it was Disney (as an organization) who insisted on a 23.98 and 29.97 frame-rate for 60Hz HD video countries, because of their concern that if it was 30fps, it'd be more difficult to downconvert to standard def. Their opinion carried a lot of weight, so everybody capitulated as a compromise.

25fps is still a terrible compromise, because that means many 24fps theatrical films are sped up 4% during transfer to 25fps for PAL and 50Hz HD countries.

BTW, I believe SMPTE discovered -- too late -- that the problems with 30fps color on B&W sets that they feared did not really happen in the real world. But by the time that was determined, the whole industry had gone to 29.97 (59.94 interlace) broadcast and recording. This is covered in John Buck's excellent eBook Timeline: A History of Editing.

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" hasn't just changed things to a solid 30fps instead of all this ... BS brought about by a shitty work-around when it thought about going from B&W to color TV broadcasting... in 1953. "

ah, if only it were as simple as just wishing it...

and, as noted, the answer is because of another crap compromise...

Don't you just love committees ??

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