slemaker Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Hey Everybody, I'm new to this forum, but really like what I'm seeing thus far. I'm starting a job tomorrow shooting on the new Red One camera and wondered if anyone has any experience working with these yet. I understand they have four channels of 24 bit 48 k audio with what looks like full size XLR inputs in the pictures. Anything I may need a heads up about? Thanks, Charlie Slemaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 There was a thread recently on here about it search the forum and you will find it. I don't think the audio inputs on the camera work yet thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Steigerwald Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Hi Charlie, You may want to take a look at this thread: http://www.jwsound.net/SMF/index.php?topic=1604.0 Looks like you may be the official Guinnea Pig Good luck and let us know what you find. -Steigs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemaker Posted October 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Thanks for your input everyone. I suppose I'll use a Lockit box for synching the Red (in the face) One and record audio onto my Fostex DV824. Any other thoughts would be appreciated... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 With the timecode being so inaccurate I would just use a dummy slate and not even mess with the camera and its timecode Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemaker Posted October 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 a dummy slate? seriously, no timecode at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Yes if the timecode is known to drift and be inaccurate and since no one has any experience with the camera. I won't mess with it at all with a dummy slate and syncing to the clap you know things will work. Since the camera is so new I bet the camera crew has no or very limited experience with the camera since it just started shipping last week. I would prefer to stay away from the camera and camera crew as much as possible so that they can figure out all the problems I am sure they will have. Unless you can run some extensive tests before you shot including the post production work flow just follow KISS. Keep it simple until the camera has all the bugs worked out of it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 I think I'd ask them to put the camera TC into free-run, jam your recorder to it and then use a TC slate with the code from your recorder. If their TC is unstable and you try to clock your recorder to it it might make audio problems for you. If the camera really does not record any audio at all then no connection is needed, if it sort of records audio then a scratch mix to camera would be a good idea. Someone here said that the audio connections are actually TA type connectors, not XLRs, which makes sense considering how small the camera body is. I'd leave the Lockit stuff alone--no one knows how or if the camera will react to the sync from that box, and you don't want to cause them any more trouble than they'll already be having with the thing. Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Audio will not record to the camera, there are no settings available at this time. There is a big job going on here in the SF area w/ Red, 20+ days, and they are getting software and firmware updates every day, so who knows? Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Settlemoir Posted October 10, 2007 Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 Looks like this is FINALLY being discussed on the RED Forums. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted October 10, 2007 Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 I just read through the post on there. I was shocked by the total lack of sound knowledge or even basics like "Do sound recorders record timecode" or " When you record Double system the audio and picture sync up automatically right?" "Do sound recorders record our timecode 23.96" It is pretty surprising to me but maybe it shouldn't be....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted October 10, 2007 Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 My understanding is that Red One has 3 time-code stamps at this point in time, 24, 25, 23.98..... this will change and may well have all ready. I would set your recorder to 23.98 free run and smack the so called smart slate every take. The camera only loads into FCP at this time and they will have no trouble syncing sound to picture. They(post) may have other workflow issues, like vast mountains of data, but once they get their heads around those issues, syncing sound will be a cakewalk. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSBELLA Posted October 10, 2007 Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 scott, good call. but, do you send a tri level sync box (either denecke or ambient) to the red one as you would on a normal hd shoot ? I have not seen the red one yet, does it have the connections "active" for the tri level sync? later, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Settlemoir Posted October 10, 2007 Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 Way to stir them up over on the RED forum Scott! <vbg> I've been lurking over there since the forum was created (and even back when it was just a category on DVXuser.) There doesn't seem to be a lot of knowledge (other than a few select members) among the posters. I've often wondered how all these people are affording to buy their REDs and even their Panasonic HPX500s to shoot their independent films (they don't seem to be actually working in video otherwise.) Hell, it took me forever to start buying my own audio/video gear and I've been in this business over 20 years (free-lance for just 5 years this time around.) I just hope they keep good care of their gear so when they decide to liquidate after their sundance rejection I can pick up a HD camera for a good price... David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 BTW, the Red Camera people are having a free seminar/presentation at the upcoming HD Expo at the Burbank Marriott on the weekend of November 6th. The info is here: http://www.hdexpo.net/ If I get the time (and nerve), I'll yell out nasty questions about timecode and audio during audience participation time. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 My favorite thing so far about the RED ONE is the 5 minute startup time every time you change batteries or change the CF card (which records for 8 minutes) this makes it very time efficient. "WAITING ON BOOT-UP!" A friend of mine that owns a rental house told me on a job yesterday that the Red's lens mount is made of aluminum. Interesting choice in material for a mount that is supposed to work with "Optimo" size lenses. Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 My favorite thing so far about the RED ONE is the 5 minute startup time every time you change batteries or the CF card (which records for 8 minutes) this makes it very time efficient. Yikes! I saw a director bark at a camera operator just a couple of weeks ago, because it took about a minute to change an HDCam tape! I think it takes us less than 5 minutes to change servers in post, when we need to access and load a new reel for a DI. Two minutes is probably closer to reality, and that includes saving the color correction file and so on. Five minutes is a nightmare on a set, especially if that happens ten times a day. And an 8-minute record time is almost 1/3 less than a 1000' mag of 35mm film. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemaker Posted October 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Hey All, Well to no one's surprise the Red One did indeed cause major delays on the set for the two day promo shoot I just finished mixing. No one was exactly clear what they were doing. We had two of the camers, one on dolly and one steadicam predominately. Just so all of you are clear, at the request of the "DIT/Red One owner" I rolled my fostex DV824 at 23.97, jammed my slate, and had camera slate every take like a film shoot. I spoke to the editor today and so far so good for synching my audio to the video files. Based on my experience I don't believe the Red One will cause much trouble for us in the audio world. Here are the problems I noticed. 1. There is no view finder - only a proprietary on board monitor. when using the onboard, the video out is not functional, therefore VTR nor anyone else can see anything. VTR had to bring, while we waited, third party onboard monitors and batteries to run them-because the Red One does not power external devices. 2. Booting up is a problem. Although in some of the posts I read some people spoke of a five minute boot up, I would have to say it was more like two maybe three tops... 3. There is no way for a DP or director or client to know exactly what they are getting as far as picture because there are no 4k monitors. Although to be fair the same is true for film. You must rely on metering, etc... 4. The 8 minute cards do cause a lot of delays. Especially if the DIT is busy fixing other problems when he should be dumping and reformatting used cards. 5. The battery life seems to be short. I could be imagining this, but sure seemed like if we weren't changing a card, we were changing a battery. i guess for me the bottom line is that once the Red One works out all the picture related kinks, we won't have any trouble as sound people working with them. Who knows if they will figure out the onboard audio system, but for now rolling on a DVD at 23.97 and slating like a film shoot is certainly easy enough and works just fine... cheers all, Charlie Slemaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 So they dumped the CF cards to a drive on-set? How did they solve the video monitoring issue--were you able to get a feed for your own monitor? (Is there any SD downconvert?) thanks Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemaker Posted October 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 Yes, they dumped the CF cards to a drive on set. I believe they had two cards for each camera and were swapping them out one after another. They solved the video monitoring problem by bringing in extra onboard camera monitors w/ external batteries. Basically they unplgged the "Red" onboards, therefore making the video out functional(can't use video out and "Red" onboard at the same time). Then VTR just split the out from the camera to the other onboards and to his cart, where I got my feed... charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Hey all, I had the chance yesterday to run some tests with the Red, thanks to the generosity of Brad Hagen of Video Resources. He let my Partner Rob Terry and I shoot and test time code and a number of concerns mentioned in this thread. Brads two Red cameras had just come back from a 6 week feature that was shot in Ohio I believe he said and had not been upgraded w the newest upgrades available. Brad also said the feature shoot went well and showed us a trailer they cut and sent to him. Very impressive. Looked like film, not HD. As for our tests, the on board audio was not working with his camera at this point in time. The camera could take a jam from my Deva and 744. It didn't drift, though it was always 1 frame off and we never did get it right on. Not sure what that was about. When we changed batteries, another concern, it took 70 to 80 seconds to re boot the camera. We did this 6 or 7 times. When we swapped compact flash cards, there was no shutting down or any such thing, we just changed them. The camera has a loud fan that shuts off when you hit record. dead silence. We opened and downloaded the files w Red Alert and their other software. dragged and synced it up in FCP. It all worked well in our limited tests. This is a new tool that I think will have a place in this world of ours. It is more like a film camera than a HD cam or ENG camera. There is nothing auto or WYSIWYG about it. You can tweak and change the look of it forever in Reds software that is a free download from their site. For sound geeks like us, I see little to be worried about. For Camera and Post, I see much to learn, but much to love as well. It is still a work in progress, but the results are impressive. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Waelder Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 The camera could take a jam from my Deva and 744. It didn't drift, though it was always 1 frame off and we never did get it right on. Not sure what that was about. This may be stating the obvious, but... When jamming a Denecke slate to a Nagra/Fostex/etc. there has always been a one frame error. The slate must read all the data bits associated with a TC number before it can display them. Post has long been aware of this built-in error and they compensate for it routinely. Possibly the one frame error you observe with the Red Camera is essentially the same. Of course, if it's one frame beyond the expected reading error, that's another matter. David Waelder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Hey David, I believe you are right, I just wasn't sure of the how n why of the Deneke slate and how it would pertain to the Red camera. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Parra Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Hi Guys, The one frame delay is only present with the TS-2SB and TS-1. Basically, since these slates are "Readers" they can display the TC only after the 80 bits have been received. Therefore, the one frame offset. Note that while the Sync Box in the TS-2 is frame accurate, the Slate electronics are still a reader (originally TS-1). On the newer generation slates (TS-3 & TS-C), this offset is not present since it is completely processor controlled. You will have a one frame offset in read mode. However, they can display in time by enabling the +1 frame read function. As for the Red One Camera, I believe there is something else going on for it to be one frame late. Best Regards, Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Hey Charlie, my bad. I didn't explain the test correctly. I was referring to the on camera smart slate we were shooting being 1 frame off from both the jammed Red time code, and my wav file time code. Thanks for your explanation of the Deneke system. I had heard this before, but I don't retain details like I used to. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.279748a58a2b862b7aa5f3b84126e232.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.