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Post vs. Location Sound Conflict


Marc Wielage

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Sometimes it just comes down to which do you prefer, too much information or not enough. It's a no brainer for me. Old school methods, digital age, automatic eternal unalterable information notwithstanding, sometimes something will slip through the cracks, real or virtual, which will make the seemingly irrelevant and inconsequential important again. Or something.

Regards

Mick

I totally agree with Mick. As a much wiser man than I once told me, "Post can only fix bad sound if they can find it." And sometimes that does happen....

Just my 2 cents.

Jim

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I agree with what Philip said - In the low budget world I live in, often my notes are the only notes being kept.  This is why I love Boom Recorder so much - I can easily capture (and now even edit-thanks Take) my notes during the take or just after.  And, I tend to over "note" things - and it is nice to see above in this thread that  is appreciated.  I run an HD-P2 as my backup, and even though it is jammed with the time code, I have now also started noting in my report the matching file number for the backup - as in:  airplane/rf hit/#45 so post can find the backup if needed.

I do tend to write with a sharpie on the disk rather than using labels, since the labels can (and do) come off and gunk things up.  Especially if left in a warm area for a time.

I also record a verbal slate on each take, and each setup (boom on 1, jane on 2, pete on 3, etc).  The only thing I don't do at this point is turn in a printed report - I don't keep a printer on my cart - but the reports are included on each DVD in all their forms (long and short) so no one will have a problem finding them.

Not sure who the mixer was that you're having problems with, but you did the right thing by asking.

Phil

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Regarding the audio headslate, tones, etc. on every disk, I like to respect the medium:  we record sound, so why shouldn't all of the appropriate information exist as a sound recording?  It's a safeguard against misplaced/mis-labeled disks and cases.

Another perspective is that DVDs are not just a sound medium.  It was quite obvious that a Nagra reel was a sound recording.  But these days, DVDs are used for EVERY aspect of film-making:  picture, music, sound, text docs, photos, you name it.  Not to say that all the labels will jump off and re-arrange themselves, but it's conceivable that an assistant editor in a fast-paced editorial could easily put the wrong DVD in the wrong case.

Finally, I believe we can afford to think further into the future than just the first and second file transfer.  Many films (and music, for that matter) have been re-mastered for picture and sound using original prints and recordings.  Imagine trying to make sense of everything in 25 years.  A labeled DVD, in a labeled case, with a paper sound report tucked into it will be much easier to contend with.  And if there is any question, throw it in the aging DVD drive and listen, "This is sound roll 002, the date is xxx, the picture is...."

I know, I know, it's crazy to think that DVDs will even last that long....

OK, enough romanticism...

As for reports, I put a customized PDF report from Boom Recorder on the disk.  Additionally, I email the report to production, and editorial.  Paper reports are the best option when the film will be sync'ed in telecine, because you sure can't open a PDF from a DV824, but I will figure out that workflow when it becomes necessary.

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Finally, I believe we can afford to think further into the future than just the first and second file transfer.  Many films (and music, for that matter) have been re-mastered for picture and sound using original prints and recordings.

I know, I know, it's crazy to think that DVDs will even last that long....

what's even crazier is that there are fewer and fewer projects we work on these days that anyone would ever want to see or listen to again...

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Who knows. In 25 years there might be a market for a retrospective collection of films that Jeff Wexler mixed.

Think of the residuals ;-))

Eric

I can see it now: the digitally restored Criterion Series - "Gigli" with additional scenes, documentary footage, interviews with Jennifer Lopez...

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Regarding the audio headslate, tones, etc. on every disk, I like to respect the medium:  we record sound, so why shouldn't all of the appropriate information exist as a sound recording?  It's a safeguard against misplaced/mis-labeled disks and cases.

Another perspective is that DVDs are not just a sound medium.  It was quite obvious that a Nagra reel was a sound recording.  But these days, DVDs are used for EVERY aspect of film-making:  picture, music, sound, text docs, photos, you name it.  Not to say that all the labels will jump off and re-arrange themselves, but it's conceivable that an assistant editor in a fast-paced editorial could easily put the wrong DVD in the wrong case.

Finally, I believe we can afford to think further into the future than just the first and second file transfer.  Many films (and music, for that matter) have been re-mastered for picture and sound using original prints and recordings.  Imagine trying to make sense of everything in 25 years.  A labeled DVD, in a labeled case, with a paper sound report tucked into it will be much easier to contend with.  And if there is any question, throw it in the aging DVD drive and listen, "This is sound roll 002, the date is xxx, the picture is...."

I know, I know, it's crazy to think that DVDs will even last that long....

OK, enough romanticism...

As for reports, I put a customized PDF report from Boom Recorder on the disk.  Additionally, I email the report to production, and editorial.  Paper reports are the best option when the film will be sync'ed in telecine, because you sure can't open a PDF from a DV824, but I will figure out that workflow when it becomes necessary.

PDF reports are cool esp. for multi-track, and more especially for LOTS of tracks (more than 8); but everyone I work with seems to appreciate being able to see what's on a disc without having to load it, ie a paper report and label.  Someday (maybe soon) when everything only exists on servers etc then maybe the reports won't matter anymore.  Another thing--if your disc is damaged and only has a PDF report, then we can't see what has been lost because the report is now unreadable.

Philip Perkins

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Perhaps this would be a good place to re-state who gets what copy of the sound report?

This is an older quote from Phil Palmer:

I've started giving the top (white) copy to editorial, as this is the copy that gets photocopied the most...for editors, dialog edit, re-re, etc.  The next copy usually gets sent to production for their mass of files.  The next copy, usually pink, goes to telecine to match up with camera for circled takes.  And the bottom copy stays with me, for later reference when they can't find something.

PWP

What is the method to assure that all these departments get their proper copy?

(I've been using 3 part for years, and have assumed that the PA or AC that I hand them off to files them properly.)

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What is the method to assure that all these departments get their proper copy?

(I've been using 3 part for years, and have assumed that the PA or AC that I hand them off to files them properly.)

I do much the same as Phil Palmer but I also have only used 3-part NCR forms for the longest time. Both the WHITE and YELLOW go in the package with the disk and this goes off to the "first stop", sound transfer or telecine facility. After transfer, most facilities, at my directive, put their telecine log and my white copy, both sent to picture editorial. This leaves me with only the PINK (which is quite often a little less readable than the first two) and this goes to the production office. In all the years I have been doing this, it is the PINK that goes to the office (via any available P.A.) that usually gets lost. It is also the copy which is least important in my mind (but of course not in their mind --- I have been called in the middle of the night, not by telecine but by someone from production wondering if we rolled any sound that day because they never got their pink copy of the sound report).

I have been tempted to go with a 4-part NCR so that I would have a copy --- this is something that I have missed when there are questions coming from editorial. Usually I ask editorial to send me a copy of MY sound report so I can sort things out. On many productions I supposed I could have production make me a copy at the end of the day before I turn in the report --- and of course if I were using a Cantar, BoomRecorder or Metacorder and had a full computer based office going with scanner, printer, .pdf's and so forth on my cart, I could do all this office work myself at wrap.

-  Jeff Wexler

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I go with the 4-part reports still, and I have a pretty heavy hand, so all are at least reasonably legible.  I keep the bottom copy, and have referred to it at least on several occasions in the last couple of years.  It's nice to know it's there.  The pink to production.  I send the first two out together with the disks.

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  Dont change scene and take.....  Scene is done once at the beginning of the day then the files are left to  record in order... File 1 then 2 then 3 etc....   SO EASY.... 

file name should look something like this...  Kngdy1     (Kong day #1)  Then, let the files rip one after another....

  Next day..... Kngdy2   let 'em rip again.......   I have NEVER heard one complaint doing things this way..... ever...

  On your report, put:

  scene  take      Notes                                file #

  301       3          2 ch. mix                           46

  Files then are recorded in the order they were done, one after another..... just like tape..... If you change the scene and take,   this will lead to a jumbled, random list of just files.... This makes finding something easier to do if all else should fail.... or someone remebers it was the take AFTER the fire alarm went off....

(...)

I agree. I work like this with my Deva.

You can work the same way on the SoundDevices BUT you can not correct metadata of a file once it has been recorded (many people is asking to be able to correct metadata asap,  obviously)

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(...)

But the rest of the time, the receivers are typically so unreliable, we generally tell people not to use wireless rec-run timecode. If the slate doesn't move (like for a live concert event), then it's not a problem, since then the crew can guarantee the transmission won't fail, assuming all the batteries hold up.

I agree that a well maintained slate jamming can be the safest but I use wireless rec run and send roll no. and segment no. to the slate and this can be helpful too. Both while shooting (by checking at the video assist. recording after some last minute change in scene labeling, etc) and later for synch.

(Denecke slates show user bits after closing sticks so you can read D0:07:F0:28 for sound file 28 on sound roll (dvd) 7 after the timecode synch frame)

Forgot to say, user bits could be sent as well when using free run or TOD if you use a wireless. I know it's obvious but...

And that I never had a problem with wireless transmission if batteries of the wireless used are monitored. After all, when slate is low battery you can have readout problems too...

I use the BlackBoxVideo 434MHz wireless TC link, wich is compatible with the Ambient system (external or internal on the slate) In fact one of my receivers is made out of an Ambient internal RX module. The BBV system is very rugged and the battery lasts very long. And, since it has a BNC for the antenna you could use a 434MHz amplifier for the TX for those far away slate ocassions. I have the amp but never used it!

BTOH it is true sometimes the slate is so far or hidden one should switch to free run and mixing both methods is not elegant, can be confusing...

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this thread has taken a turn and become "how TC gets to the slate"

Free Run:Transmitted, or TOD: jammed.

personally, I provide what post prefers!! After all, I'm doing it for them, not for me!

Actually, just to nitpick, it's *REC Run*:Transmitted, or Free Run:Jammed.  Free Run doesn't have to be TOD -- many of us start the day with zeroes as it's simpler and more straightforward for others to follow the file order on a piece of non-linear media that way.

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Guest afewmoreyears

Regarding sound reports.....

  I  prefer to use a 4 layer, (printed 2000 and it's all I have)  2 to production, Yellow and Pink and 2 in the box.... White and Gold..  The upper (white copy) I highlight anything with sharpie, blue green or red, important for others to know.... Channel choice for example....

  I then have Production color copy and send to edit the white top copy, so as all the important information is clear for those folks down the line. If the top copy is lost, and it always seems to be, they have a direct to edit copy...... or backup...

The rest is up to them.....  I've done all I can.....

 

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I have a question is about the head slate.

I know that at least on low-budget stuff on the East Coast the 1st AC or clapper tends to say the name of the take out loud after they hear "speeding" from the sound department. I suppose it's the old - fashioned way. I like that method because it tends to make the script supervisor and the mixer hear what it is that the camera department thinks the take is. Sometimes they have a different idea from what the script supervisor thinks it is, sometimes it's the only way I ever find out what it is! ;-)

But for productions where the mixer is saying the name of the take via the slate mic just before the clapper is dropped, is there any way to "pre record" the scene and take number? Or do you have to wait until after "roll sound" is called?

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I have a question is about the head slate.

I know that at least on low-budget stuff on the East Coast the 1st AC or clapper tends to say the name of the take out loud after they hear "speeding" from the sound department. I suppose it's the old - fashioned way.

But for productions where the mixer is saying the name of the take via the slate mic just before the clapper is dropped, is there any way to "pre record" the scene and take number? Or do you have to wait until after "roll sound" is called?

This has been the procedure on the east coast for quite some time but pretty much had been dropped on the west coast. I don't know exactly why. There are good points and bad points regarding the Assistant Camera person calling out the slate number. The good points are fairly obvious --- the voice ID will always match what is on the slate, even if it is incorrect, and it will almost always happen in close proximity to the actual sound of the clap (since both the voice ID and hitting the sticks is being done by the same person). Another good thing is it encourages the sound team (mixer and boom operator primarily) to make a good effort to record both the voice and the slate --- this will always be appreciated. What is not appreciated by many is the TIME it takes for the Assistant to look at the slate, make sure the camera (or cameras) are running, say the voice ID and hits the sticks --- many productions are already very agitated about the amount of shooting time lost on such things as slating and saying "action" not quickly enough.

As for pre-slating, this was standard procedure in the analog linear 1/4" days where you would roll the Nagra, voice ID and then cut. When they said roll sound all you had to do was roll, say speed and they could mark it. This of course often resulted in your pre-slate info being wrong and often you would not even discover this unless you had seen the slate when presented or later on the script person tells you to print 32A takes 1, 4, 7 and 9 and you don't even have a scene 32A. When DAT came along, pre-slating developed another problem which was the 9 seconds required to lay down the PNO (program number ID) which would be written while you recorded your pre-slate ID. There were DAT machines that actually would not allow you to cut the machine until the elapsed 9 second interval. So, although linear, use of pre-slating with DAT machines was problematical. Now, with file-based recorders, it is of little use to have one sound file which is just the pre-slate ID even though it would be, in a linear fashion, the file that just precedes the file it is identifying. I think there is probably no way to mimic the procedure of pre-slating, as we knew it long ago, in the file-based world.

Interesting bit of personal trivia: I worked on a job in Europe where the Assistant doing the slate had to call out the scene and take ID in 3 languages! Editorial back in the U.S. wanted an English voice ID right before the clap (and did not trust that I would do my voice ID and the slate would come right after) and the transfer facility in the city we were shooting in had 2 employees --- both spoke different languages and neither spoke English. Burned up a lot of film on that one and of course none of it ended up the screen.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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Thanks Jeff, that's very interesting.

BTW -- the way I've seen it done (and done myself) out here is to read all the stuff on the slate while sound is rolling, then the camera speeds and the camera operator calls "marker", so that the camera isn't running while the slate is being read. That burns up a lot less film.

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BTW -- the way I've seen it done (and done myself) out here is to read all the stuff on the slate while sound is rolling, then the camera speeds and the camera operator calls "marker", so that the camera isn't running while the slate is being read. That burns up a lot less film.

The request that one time from editorial was actually that they wanted to be able to be viewing the film, seeing the slate and hearing the vocal ID --- so, this necessitated rolling the camera BEFORE the Assistant started the voice ID.

-  JW

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Not only has preslating gone away but on HD shoots where they roll almost continuously I find it hard to get a voice slate in while no actor is talking, and now it is more important than ever!  I do like voice-slating--it makes it much easier to find things in a long take and make sure one is listening to the correct file.  Also--the scripty can usually hear me on her Comtek and correct me if I've got the info wrong.  I like Brian's notion that if someone had to come back to my recordings in the future that the written notes would be welcome--I wish things I worked on were good enough that that might happen!  Maybe I'll bring a scanner to the set so I can scan in my notes as a PDF.  (Not really....)    The PDF reports that Metacorder makes do make multitrack work (esp @ 16+ tracks) much easier.

Philip Perkins

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