Jesse Flaitz Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 I'm one week into a three week dialogue edit on a feature and it's a very interesting view being on the other side of production (I've done foley and sound effects recording/editing in post, but this is my first real dia edit). Nothing quite exposes every minute error in production like dialogue editing. I'm sure most of the more experienced sound mixers already are aware of these things, but it might be an interesting eye opener for newcomers into the production sound world to sit in on a dialogue edit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 It's a GREAT idea for production mixers to visit post and learn what they do and what we can do to make their jobs easier, making the overall dialog track better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 It is also good to learn how to and then make films. All aspects of the craft are worth understanding and respecting. Always makes one better at their chosen specialty. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason porter Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 I am curious, what issues are you dealing with? I would assume most of the issues stem from bad locations and a lack of 'sound' discipline from the other departments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rb1138 Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 I would love that. Knowing more about post makes the production process a lot less mysterious. A lot of directors ask me, "does it sound good?" or "is it usable?" Maybe I can say more than "Yeah it sounds...good" or "maybe" (in that way that directors hate). I am inexperienced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Hah!!! You think editing exposes every minute error? Wait till it gets to the Dubstage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJBerto Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 I'm one week into a three week dialogue edit on a feature and it's a very interesting view being on the other side of production (I've done foley and sound effects recording/editing in post, but this is my first real dia edit). Nothing quite exposes every minute error in production like dialogue editing. I'm sure most of the more experienced sound mixers already are aware of these things, but it might be an interesting eye opener for newcomers into the production sound world to sit in on a dialogue edit. So, how has it changed your thought process? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Burstein Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Some feedback I was able to get from editors that have worked with the files I give them told me a few things, but I've never sat in for a dialogue edit. Some things they really appreciate are wildlines and room tone. They also recommended a few of what I think are unconventional things, such a wild tracks for actions that are shot at higher framerates. Slower paced walking and such. I hear mixed reviews on room tone from other mixers. Some insist it's not necessary, and that it can be built from a few seconds of silence during takes here or there, and some want to take the time to get it every scene. My approach is that when there's a particular sound that's stop and go throughout a scene you must either fix it through problem solving on set, or record room tone while the louder, stop and go sound present. I generally try for every scene and don't make a big fuss if I don't think it's a huge deal., because it's appreciated in post. Although with different lighting setups and the changes in environment as the day passes it might not match anywho. Wildlines seem to be very helpful for editors, and any tips or tricks on convincing production into giving you the time to do so is appreciated. If a line wasn't covered cleanly at all then I'll let the first A.D know and we'll get it at some point during the day. Like Jason Porter, I'm curious as to what troubles you're dealing with also. Please share! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rb1138 Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Some feedback I was able to get from editors that have worked with the files I give them told me a few things, but I've never sat in for a dialogue edit. Some things they really appreciate are wildlines and room tone. They also recommended a few of what I think are unconventional things, such a wild tracks for actions that are shot at higher framerates. Slower paced walking and such. I hear mixed reviews on room tone from other mixers. Some insist it's not necessary, and that it can be built from a few seconds of silence during takes here or there, and some want to take the time to get it every scene. My approach is that when there's a particular sound that's stop and go throughout a scene you must either fix it through problem solving on set, or record room tone while the louder, stop and go sound present. I generally try for every scene and don't make a big fuss if I don't think it's a huge deal., because it's appreciated in post. Although with different lighting setups and the changes in environment as the day passes it might not match anywho. Wildlines seem to be very helpful for editors, and any tips or tricks on convincing production into giving you the time to do so is appreciated. If a line wasn't covered cleanly at all then I'll let the first A.D know and we'll get it at some point during the day. Like Jason Porter, I'm curious as to what troubles you're dealing with also. Please share! Yes, room tone's always confused me. Consider that we get room tone at the end of the scene when all the cameras and lights have vastly moved from where they once were when we started the scene? How could it match the wide shot? Does it make more sense to get room tone at the start of the scene or the end? On another note, there is a topic around here I remember reading. It said to record ten seconds after the take ended. Director would go "camera cut, but keep rolling sound" for ten seconds. Would this give more usable room tone? We would get only ten seconds, but it would be at every set-up and every take. Any thoughts? Sawrab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 On another note, there is a topic around here I remember reading. It said to record ten seconds after the take ended. Director would go "camera cut, but keep rolling sound" for ten seconds. Would this give more usable room tone? We would get only ten seconds, but it would be at every set-up and every take. Any thoughts? Sawrab You'd be boned if you let an EPIC cut... the hairdryer would turn on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rb1138 Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 You'd be boned if you let an EPIC cut... the hairdryer would turn on. True. In the case of the EPIC, we should keep rolling. I think I combined two ideas (it's late on the east coast right now). One is to cut camera and keep rolling sound, and the other is to record ten seconds before and after the take to smooth cross-fades in post. Uh, I guess I created a new idea. Any good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 A good director friend of mine and I use a trick on set that works for me. That's when I'm also the re-recording mixer (and editor and foley artist and....) : He waits a good 10 seconds or so before calling action. And of course this only works in scenes where there's no time pressure or big emotions. Otherwise, I like to think of room tone like this: If I'm a OMB, laving, leaving, mixing and booming, room tone isn't on my table at all. If it's in the interest of post to get room tone, It's their problem IMO. They should tell the AD or production about this, or get in touch with me so I have some HELP on set. Battling 20 people on set on your own, that's a David vs Goliath battle. If I'm a team of two, room tone's no question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 I once had a director take a 5 second break between "and" and "action". This way he got a really quiet crew without always having someone shout "quiet please!". Perfect room tone for each take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 All you need is a couple of good seconds. We ask for 30, because you might get a couple of seconds where the f-ing actors will stop whispering and the crew will stop trying to get ready for the next shot. The moments around the sticks are usually the best room tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rb1138 Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 All you need is a couple of good seconds. We ask for 30, because you might get a couple of seconds where the f-ing actors will stop whispering and the crew will stop trying to get ready for the next shot. The moments around the sticks are usually the best room tone. You're right. During the minute of room tone I like to ask for it's usually a good 15 or 25 seconds that doesn't have crew noise, a truck driving by, etc. in it. Where everything's just perfect. I'll just let the room tone run till I get my good 15 or 20 seconds. It'd be nice if we could get room tone that looped very well. How does one get that? What I mean is how do you work with a few seconds of tone? It doesn't always loop very well. Is there some trick to it.... - Sawrab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlimp Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 I'm only doing little productions (indie shorts, web spots, small commercials), but what I've learnt from doing post, especially dialogue editing, is priceless. When on location, I know exactly what I'll need in post, and when in post, I know where to find the stuff. Read Purcell's book, go sit behind the computer for a few days, do a little dialogue edit and you'll learn a whole load of things that will be super helpful on set. I often work with the same director, and we've established some routines similar to pkautsch's (2 posts up) one: he'll give me a few seconds extra between camera rolling and "action", or, if needed, some handle between last action before announcing "cut". He's developed some feel/ears for it, which makes working with him much more enjoyable than with people I have to explain stuff over and over. Creating roomtone by stripping silence can work, but I usually get dedicated 30s of tone for each setup. Of these 30 secs, often only a few are really usable. Nice thing about dial editing is, you don't need a big studio. +1 one the tone around the sticks. Often, first thing I do is making copies of these and putting them in an extra RT folder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Flaitz Posted September 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 The biggest thing I've learned is the paramount importance of consistency of mics used, angles and proximity. I always knew it was necessary, but not to the extent that I realize during a dialogue edit. And little things like "Well we got it on another take", or "We caught it on the boom" aren't good enough anymore. Again, this is nothing new to more experienced sound mixers, but for me it was quite an eye opener. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Rose Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 It'd be nice if we could get room tone that looped very well. How does one get that? C-loop. If the clip is real short, it starts to sound mechanical. But with five or six good seconds you can fill almost anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Burstein Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 The biggest thing I've learned is the paramount importance of consistency of mics used, angles and proximity. I always knew it was necessary, but not to the extent that I realize during a dialogue edit. And little things like "Well we got it on another take", or "We caught it on the boom" aren't good enough anymore. Again, this is nothing new to more experienced sound mixers, but for me it was quite an eye opener. Ah gotcha. Once in a while if a scene has a lot of movement in it and we're getting room tone, i'll try to get 15 seconds or so from the 2 or 3 different positions that the microphone is reaching, if there are any noticeable changes that I can hear, or that are obvious. Example: Living room setting with the front door open. Woman on couch talking. Woman on couch goes to answer front door (all continuous). Then at the end notating it. (very important) Keep us updated on any new key importances! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 " I would assume most of the issues stem from bad locations and a lack of 'sound' discipline from the other departments. " why ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Hah!!! You think editing exposes every minute error? Wait till it gets to the Dubstage. I think the editing exposes most errors, esp if I'm working w/ headphones. Whether or not they get FIXED by the time they get to the dubstage is another issue. Besides, don't you want us to leave some of the challenges to you? phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bondelev Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 About a third of my credits are as dialog editor. I've used room tone maybe three times in 20+ years. The fill needs to match the take exactly, and in most quiet locations, the noisiest thing on the set is the camera, whether it is film or a RED. The best place to find fill is between the words "and... ACTION." if your director is not doing this (pausing before action), please ask them to do so. One reason is that everyone is quiet at that point in the take. The idea of cut camera but keep sound rolling is useless. If the location is very noisy, fill is much more usable. Even if there is no dialog in the shot, if the production sound is bad, please ask them to to it over as a wild take. Even a single footstep can be very helpful at cleaning up a problem on a take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Flaitz Posted September 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Also, I might be overly crazy about my levels and signal to noise ratios in production. I'm constantly trying to get my dialogue averaging around 0 VU on my mixer, with as high a signal to noise ratio as possible. That's obviously a good thing, but I'm, realizing now that dialogue can be very useable even at low record volumes and a less than desirable s/n. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 RT can help in static situations like an interview, where the mic position doesn't change but the BG noises might. Often the content of interviews gets shuffled around time wise, different order, so RTs of the various BGs that happen thru a long interview can really be helpful ramping in and out of the different environments, esp when there is nowhere to hide (no other audio in the track). For drama, where the voices and mics are moving around....yeah, of limited usefulness usually. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rb1138 Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 C-loop. If the clip is real short, it starts to sound mechanical. But with five or six good seconds you can fill almost anything. Yes I have read this in the Dialogue Editing book or was it the Audio Postproduction book.... Yes, I have had trouble doing it with short sounds. Five to six seconds eh? Might be just what I need. Also, I might be overly crazy about my levels and signal to noise ratios in production. I'm constantly trying to get my dialogue averaging around 0 VU on my mixer, with as high a signal to noise ratio as possible. That's obviously a good thing, but I'm, realizing now that dialogue can be very useable even at low record volumes and a less than desirable s/n. I've heard of that concept, but isn't clipping worse than noise? Better to be low than to clip? Some idea like that. - Sawrab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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