daniel Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 if I were designing the interface with the hardware available already, I would make it so you could press a button and "flip" the faders from 1-6 to 7-12. 1 beep in the headphones means 1-7, 2 beeps means 7-12. that way you don't have to look down to change levels. not ideal, but a reasonable workaround. I call it "zaxflip" - already filed the trademark, so don't even think about it. you'll be needing motorized faders as well then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Martin Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Unfortunately for "Zaxflip" the knobs would have to be digital rotary encoders (which they aren't). Great idea but would need some serious hardware overhaul. Curious to see what the official solution they are working on is. Not sure how else it could be done other than the way it already is (which is not quick enough for actual mixing). I would still love to have a hardware add-on for the last 4 channels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian albritton Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 you'll be needing motorized faders as well then? yes, and a TT patchbay on the side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT Groove Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Soon we will probably see the Nomad supporting iLok? You purchase the "features" you need and when you go to use other productions Nomad, you plug your iLok in and walla, you got all the features you paid for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian albritton Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Unfortunately for "Zaxflip" the knobs would have to be digital rotary encoders (which they aren't). Great idea but would need some serious hardware overhaul. Curious to see what the official solution they are working on is. Not sure how else it could be done other than the way it already is (which is not quick enough for actual mixing). I would still love to have a hardware add-on for the last 4 channels. why would you need rotary encoders? basically you just use a button to assign the knobs back and forth between two sets of assignments - no hardware mod necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 I think Zaxcom's more aggressive marketing and quickly changing does not ring desperate, but proving that they can quickly adapt. Sound Devices is a strong brand worldwide, but, at least here in Sweden, Zaxcom isn't. So I imagine they have to be more aggressive to reach over the pond(s) and be quicker and better than their counterparts. Who wins? Not sure and it doesn't matter. . So long as you don't feel like a loser for buying early maybe you're right but i'm not sure the 'aggressive' (as you described it) marketing works so well with us euros. Eg i find US TV advertising is more 'in your face' than the equivalent here but that is a subjective view and maybe its not related anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Tuzo Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 why would you need rotary encoders? basically you just use a button to assign the knobs back and forth between two sets of assignments - no hardware mod necessary. It MAY be able to be accomplished with traditional pots, but the idea behind the rotary encoders is that it would be far easier for the microprocessor to remember the previous "state" of said channel when flipping back and forth, and thus be able to operate on a simple input value change versus an actual hard resistive figure. I suppost that one could program the MP to recognize an if/then command based on +/- resistance of the pots, but I can't think of an elegant way to do it. I can't imagine it would be entirely stable. Are we sure that Zax isn't using encoders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Martin Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 why would you need rotary encoders? basically you just use a button to assign the knobs back and forth between two sets of assignments - no hardware mod necessary. I may be wrong, but the faders are just analog pots. So, say you have a level set for channel 1 (for example at 12 o'clock), you then flip for that pot to now control input 7. Input 7 will then jump in level to where you have the channel 1 fader physically set. You make an adjustment on that fader for your source on input 7 (say, 10 o'clock), then when you flip back to controlling channel 1, your channel one jumps from 12 o'clock to 10 o'clock. I don't think you can use an analog fader pot to simultaneously control two different inputs with two different levels. They would at the very least have to be motorized faders so when you switch between banks of channels the physical position of the fader correctly reflects the level set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian albritton Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Wyatt and Matt - good points, didn't think that through. I don't own a nomad anyway :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted October 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Fascinating thread - especially when it comes to the ethical vs commercial interests involved in the manufacture, marketing and distribution process. Dan has made some really good points here and I would like to use some of those points to comment. "Did Zaxcom (and the dealers) know when they started selling the first Nomads that they would also be releasing the Maxx and Lite so soon after?" The original Nomad has been out for quite some time before Maxx was announced. Nomad was not a reaction to anything else, it fit squarely in the area that Dan points out: "released it in response to what they (Sound Devices in Dan's post, Zaxcom in mine) heard sound ops asking for over the last few years combined with what they had the means to produce." This is essentially how both companies operate as far as I can see. Nomad draws heavily on the very well established Deva/Fusion line of recorders, Maxx draws heavily on Nomad --- so these were both things Zaxcom could do. The 664 looks to have drawn on the 552 and the long running successful analog mixer, the 442. So, again, these were things Sound Devices could do. As for timing, if Sound Devices could have announced and released the 664 closer to the time that Nomad started shipping, I'm sure they would have. "If they did then i can understand why some feel jaded or disappointed - it does look a little cynical. If they did NOT know at the time of selling the first Nomads that they would be updating that current product so soon, it kind of looks a little chaotic or at least quite anxious about loosing sales to competing products (and they must have known SD would be bringing something new to market soon)." I would question the "so soon" part of this scenario. I am fairly sure that Zaxcom was working on some revision to the Nomad line well before Sound Devices announced any new products. This is because after Nomad being available for almost a year, and in the various models and pricing, it was clear that the original model designations and capabilities might need to change. These changes, the consolidating of the model line up, were in the works well before the SD 664 was announced, and Zaxcom would have made those changes, introduced the Nomad Lite model even earlier if they could have. The other factor I see at work here is the differences in marketing, availability and pricing in the world market that sound people operate in. Someone who has just gotten their Nomad (from the original model lineup), paid a premium price because they are in a country or market that is quite different than the U.S., these seemingly rapid changes in models and pricing will have a different impact (and added to that, the difficulty in possibly obtaining enough work in the smaller market to get some revenue from their new purchase). This is really not so different than my early days buying equipment here in the U.S. when the majority of the gear we were using was made in another country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 yes, and a TT patchbay on the side The TT patchbay was over my head - but i was serious about motorized (rotary) faders. Never going to happen of course but i would prefer it to an add on box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian albritton Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 The TT patchbay was over my head - but i was serious about motorized (rotary) faders. Never going to happen of course but i would prefer it to an add on box. thought you meant 100mm motorized faders and were making fun of me lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arnold Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 That is all correct if you currently own a Nomad 8 you can upgrade to a 12 for the difference in price. So for slightly under $200 you will get 12 tracks, USB recording / Key Board support, Zaxnet, and when implemented a 10 track auto-mixer. No, for $200 you will get 12 tracks - USB recording/Keyboard support, Zaxnet and auto-mix are all features attached to the Nomad 8 anyway - whenever they are actually ready. They are not 'bonus' features of the 12 that we are suddenly getting cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arnold Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 I have to chime in here, seeing as I was about to purchase a Nomad 8; Personally, this is good news for me. I wanted a 12 to begin with, but the price and the features couldn't justify paying more than the 8, since back then there really was no big difference in features. Imagine the poor sod who just bought a brand new 552 just months before the 664 announcement. Would they have been mad and started barking on SD? Don't think so... Might be an unfair comparison, but still a legit one as I see it, since Zaxcom are actually providing upgrades, not an entirely new machine. So it looks as I'll be getting a Nomad 12. Sweet! I don't really think the 552 comparison is very applicable. A 788 perhaps. IF SD had released the 788Lite merely a few weeks after our theoretical man's purchase, then yes, being slightly jaded would seem perfectly reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arnold Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Dan has made some really good points here and I would like to use some of those points to comment. "Did Zaxcom (and the dealers) know when they started selling the first Nomads that they would also be releasing the Maxx and Lite so soon after?" The original Nomad has been out for quite some time before Maxx was announced. Nomad was not a reaction to anything else, it fit squarely in the area that Dan points out: "released it in response to what they (Sound Devices in Dan's post, Zaxcom in mine) heard sound ops asking for over the last few years combined with what they had the means to produce." This is essentially how both companies operate as far as I can see. Nomad draws heavily on the very well established Deva/Fusion line of recorders, Maxx draws heavily on Nomad --- so these were both things Zaxcom could do. The 664 looks to have drawn on the 552 and the long running successful analog mixer, the 442. So, again, these were things Sound Devices could do. As for timing, if Sound Devices could have announced and released the 664 closer to the time that Nomad started shipping, I'm sure they would have. "If they did then i can understand why some feel jaded or disappointed - it does look a little cynical. If they did NOT know at the time of selling the first Nomads that they would be updating that current product so soon, it kind of looks a little chaotic or at least quite anxious about loosing sales to competing products (and they must have known SD would be bringing something new to market soon)." I would question the "so soon" part of this scenario. I am fairly sure that Zaxcom was working on some revision to the Nomad line well before Sound Devices announced any new products. This is because after Nomad being available for almost a year, and in the various models and pricing, it was clear that the original model designations and capabilities might need to change. These changes, the consolidating of the model line up, were in the works well before the SD 664 was announced, and Zaxcom would have made those changes, introduced the Nomad Lite model even earlier if they could have. The other factor I see at work here is the differences in marketing, availability and pricing in the world market that sound people operate in. Someone who has just gotten their Nomad (from the original model lineup), paid a premium price because they are in a country or market that is quite different than the U.S., these seemingly rapid changes in models and pricing will have a different impact (and added to that, the difficulty in possibly obtaining enough work in the smaller market to get some revenue from their new purchase). This is really not so different than my early days buying equipment here in the U.S. when the majority of the gear we were using was made in another country. Indeed Jeff. The Nomad may have been on sale for about a year, but realistically here in Blighty they've been like rocking horse poo. It's only recently that units have become more easily obtainable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Orusa Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 He has a point though I remember when I bought my first mp3 player before the ipod existed it was a little sony device and cost just under £300. A month later the price dropped by almost £100. Its how business works companies change products and prices all the time. Was I entitled by Sony to get my money back? Hell no I just accepted it. So what do you fell Zaxcom owe you? For that matter what do they owe me? Nothing You have hardly been swindled that is such an over exaggeration When I bought the original iPhone for $600, they gave me $100 back when they lowered the price a few months later. But comparing Zaxcom to Sony or Apple isn't a fair comparison. They are very different companies with a different clientele. If Zaxcom lost as many customers as Sony loses in a day, they would be out of customers. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted October 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Indeed Jeff. The Nomad may have been on sale for about a year, but realistically here in Blighty they've been like rocking horse poo. It's only recently that units have become more easily obtainable. I apologize for not elaborating on this issue, the relatively different impact some of these things we have been discussing have on sound people working in different countries, purchasing equipment from different dealers, etc. There are many issues which the majority of us working here in the U.S. are completely unaware of. I just wanted to mention something in that regard because it seemed to be a factor when discussing timing, pricing, availability and updates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 "If they did then i can understand why some feel jaded or disappointed - it does look a little cynical. If they did NOT know at the time of selling the first Nomads that they would be updating that current product so soon, it kind of looks a little chaotic or at least quite anxious about loosing sales to competing products (and they must have known SD would be bringing something new to market soon)." I would question the "so soon" part of this scenario. I am fairly sure that Zaxcom was working on some revision to the Nomad line well before Sound Devices announced any new products. This is because after Nomad being available for almost a year, and in the various models and pricing, it was clear that the original model designations and capabilities might need to change. These changes, the consolidating of the model line up, were in the works well before the SD 664 was announced, and Zaxcom would have made those changes, introduced the Nomad Lite model even earlier if they could have. Thanks for responding Jeff. "so soon" - yes. i think we diverge here and i'm sure some of that has to do with me being in the UK and different arrangements for distribution and upgrades. But there are some other factors in here too. I think it fair to say that most high end recorders have been released with some features still in the pipeline (and certainly improvements and updates beyond the advertised functions have also followed) but i don't think i'm being unfair on Zaxcom when i suggest they have been as enthusiastic as some of their customers to have their latest recorders in the field a little earlier than some other producers might have done. And in Zaxcom's case, the customers enthusiasm builds up over many months with the pre release details of all the exciting features the recorders will eventually have. So 1 could consider these recorders as having a 'faded' release, as in, you can buy the box with all the pots and connectors but some of the advertised (and in some cases USP) features are to follow, as and when. That's 1 thing in its self (and i think most of us accept that) but if a producer then brings in an update or a more competitively configured option and or pricing before delivering all advertised features on previous (less competitively priced) models it can damage peoples confidence in a brand. I was advised by a UK distributor to wait a year unless i was desperate to have a nomad on release, i think partly for these reasons. As you observe yourself, different markets means different deals and servicing and usually a longer trip back the factory to fix problems and upgrades. In short there is a difference between delivering the first part of something and the rest of it and some peoples clock starts from the first of it and others the rest of it. How many days you have actually been able to earn money with the investment probably has a lot to do with that as well. That aside though, i have another question regarding how much in advance Zaxcom new they were going to make these announcements. It would seem that the dealers didn't know this was going to happen because as of now, none of them know quite what the upgrade pricing is actually going to be. I don't imagine Glenn would willfully want to cause anxiety and tension for his customers in a market he is a big player in, so if he new a while ago, i think pricing would have been worked out and dealers would know and everyone can be reassuring because it looks well managed - unless of course he's worried dealers would spill the beans early and damage sales of current products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 " , but I do disagree with a company policy that charges an additional $300 " your privilege, of course, but that sort of policy is not very unusual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpiegari Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Yeah, this. I think anyone who has had greater than 30 days of uninterrupted use is probably out of luck. But I will point out NOBODY has a Nomad with all the advertised features. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Spaeth Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 I ordered my Nomad in May last year, got it in November (started shipping in October I think). A few weeks after I bought mine, the prices of the Nomad models went up(!) - a reaction to the huge interest and amount of preorders, and lack of alternatives at the time? Now people looking at a Nomad have to decide between that and a 664 (among other options that were already available back then) - so we see a price drop on Zaxcom's side now. Supply and demand, I don't see anything indecent here. Of course, I was lucky to have paid the early price (but I paid for that, too, being an early adopter and having to send the Nomad to Zaxcom a few times because it wasn't working as it should have). So if I were to buy today, I would lean towards a 664, having no real need for Zaxnet. So Zaxcom better lower their prices, because while the Nomad is a fantastic machine and fun to work with, announced features and small important thingies (display items etc) are still not implemented. I remember in an early Nomad rumor thread that the very Senator warned about buying early. That was one of his few valuable, non-redundant posts, so hats off to him! I knew there might be issues, there were more than I expected but I had been warned (by my distributor, too). I could have bought a 788 back then but I know I wouldn't be as happy with it as I am today with my Nomad, even with a bunch of featured still not being realized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srgtfury Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 I thought I read all the posts but I missed that too. Where did you get the amount of 195 $? Myself, I never had the need for more than 8 tracks yet but might be a good thing for future projects... Hi Christian, What types of projects would be likely for the 12 tracks. that the 8 cannot accommodate, please? Fury inquires, because his 8 is at the mothership, as we type Thank you very much Fury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arnold Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Hi Christian, What types of projects would be likely for the 12 tracks. that the 8 cannot accommodate, please? Fury inquires, because his 8 is at the mothership, as we type Thank you very much Fury Who knows? I can think of one reality show I just did that could have used it as the 'hub' recorder. In fact we had a Fusion for this which is probably far more suitable. In fact JoeCos would have been ideal, but production wouldn't pay... Still, IMO 12 is way overkill for most projects I touch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srgtfury Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 For those, who embrace the motor Ve-hickle, analogies, feature this. Fury owned, at one point a Bentley, Con GT coupe (B/B, piano and pounded aluminum fascia) and at another point, Lexus 450. The Bentley is to Zax and SD, what the Lexus is to Zoom, IMHO, at least as far as factual experiences, in Fury's experience can report. The GT got T-boned in a parking lot and needed a new door, which took 3 months and four doors to acquire a perfect copy, from the Island. The Lexus needed and electronic ignition part, which took just as long to arrive from another island nation. A month after the Former's part arrived, a $5,000 check arrived, with a note, disavowing fault, but hoping to dissuade any dubities Fury might have, as regards W.O.'s commitment to customers. The Latter sent un'cazz. Now, one is clearly a niche market, the other much more mainstream. One felt it incumbent to proactively respond, while the other, chose to demur. One can look at all sorts of parameters, including profit margin, etc., etc., but the analogy strikes Fury as a reasonable one, that has application to posters efforts to capture an automotive comparison. Having written the above, as Fury has noted before, salient capitalism is at work here. Ball, though, is in Zaxcom's court, for the moment, and the crowd is cheering for... Thank you very much Fury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Woodcock Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 For those, who embrace the motor Ve-hickle, analogies, feature this. Fury owned, at one point a Bentley, Con GT coupe (B/B, piano and pounded aluminum fascia) and at another point, Lexus 450. The Bentley is to Zax and SD, what the Lexus is to Zoom, IMHO, at least as far as factual experiences, in Fury's experience can report. The GT got T-boned in a parking lot and needed a new door, which took 3 months and four doors to acquire a perfect copy, from the Island. The Lexus needed and electronic ignition part, which took just as long to arrive from another island nation. A month after the Former's part arrived, a $5,000 check arrived, with a note, disavowing fault, but hoping to dissuade any dubities Fury might have, as regards W.O.'s commitment to customers. The Latter sent un'cazz. Now, one is clearly a niche market, the other much more mainstream. One felt it incumbent to proactively respond, while the other, chose to demur. One can look at all sorts of parameters, including profit margin, etc., etc., but the analogy strikes Fury as a reasonable one, that has application to posters efforts to capture an automotive comparison. Having written the above, as Fury has noted before, salient capitalism is at work here. Ball, though, is in Zaxcom's court, for the moment, and the crowd is cheering for... Thank you very much Fury referring to oneself in the third person is a clear indication of insanity I called my dealer in the UK and he has no idea what is going on in terms of upgrades and pricing Regards Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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