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Las Vegas local ENG sound mixer needed 10/5 through 10/7/12


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As I've said before, are we contributing to the problem by giving too much advice on this forum to newbies? We are teaching them how to solve problems that took us years of experience to work through. We are giving them the answers to the test. Somethings take personal experience to solve but we have shown them which fork in the path to take when the problem arises. Are we not part of the problem ourselves?

Good point. I remember being asked to teach a series of workshops for an universtiy film school professor while he was to be out of town. No problem I said, happy to help out...until I saw a number of the students soon after post shingles selling themselves as "seasoned" sound "professionals". In effect I was training my competition. I've experienced similar results from taking on interns. Now I'm not opposed to passing on the craft no more than I hope to continue learning from my own mentors, but to short cut answers to perplexing scenarios is doing no one any favors in the long run. Maybe it will create or further enforce the idea of a 2-tiered society. Rich and poor, High grade craftsmen and disposable TV equipment operators.

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So... what should the rate be then, given there's no details on this particular shoot? I'm curious...

The job has something to do with pick up artists and hidden cameras. What that means exactly I'm not sure, but if the imagination is left to run the possibilities I might suspect that instead of tuna another species of fish might be offered as additonal compensation. Hmmm...maybe it's a really good gig in disguise. :)

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Hate to provide any amount of unfortunate rude awakening, but anyone who does actual work is expected to do it for less and less compensation. A few of my friends work for a production company in Hollywood. It's the same production company that does Top Chef, The L Word, etc. but it's their Youtube channel. The title my friends all hold is 'Producer/Shooter'. I'm sure you already realize they're expected to do sound as well. The company provides them with a Zoom and a couple G3s, but they provide their own cameras and they're only making around $1500 a week.

I did one small gig recording a board feed for one of my friends that works for them and they wouldn't go higher than $250. Almost refused it but decided to help out the friend in need and it was only a couple hours. On my invoice I put a note that it was a special discount off of my $500/12 labor + $250 gear rental rate...but I doubt they care at all about it.

Fact is, $750 is what I hope for but I have many clients that can only do $550 and I have some that can only do $450. LA is full of people who will do sound for $250/12+. I won't but there is a balance to be struck and $550 is a lot better than $0. It's also more than just about everyone else on set is making. I really can't understand why anyone would want to do the thankless job of production sound for less than $25/hr + gear rental though!

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A 12hr day is your quoted day? I don't know any one who uses a 12 hr standard quote. 10hr seems to be the defacto standard.

Eric

Exactly..... Cooking the goose right from the get go, no wonder so many producers just assume it is a 12 hr. standard.... it is not... Eric is right ... Wake up...

F*%$ the 12 hour day....

A $250 gear rental, in LA, 12 hour days.... we're all doomed... Daniel, you are contributing to the problem with the mind set of, "it's better than nothing" so is $5.... WHERE does it stop... when the producers stop snickering and actually feel bad? Don't hold your breath Daniel....

Quote from Daniel,

"Hate to provide any amount of unfortunate rude awakening, but anyone who does actual work is expected to do it for less and less compensation.

Daniel, do you think this is because of workers like me, or workers like you....? You may expect this, I do not... I, like others have pointed out, actually expect pay to go UP, yes, that's right, up, to go along with cost of living increases.... Now under a screwed economy a few things will happen for sure. One thing for sure is, Producers will use that as a weapon, and some of that is true. SOME of it... budgetary, makes a BIT of sense... I can agree to maybe delay cost of living increases, but to simply say, I expect to perform my job for MUCH less, with less crew and compensation is both wrong and insane....

This is all a perfect example of oversaturation of our market.... people actually think this is all OK.... many people reading this were probably 10yrs old or not even born when our predecessors, also many people reading this, fought for years to get things to a specific pay level only to have a crop of Newbies and young folks in the last few years, in a free for all orgy, yes, orgy, drag all their hard work and efforts through the mud.. It is heartbreaking at best... devestating financially to most of us at it's least... Why is this so hard for people to understand... why.

Daniel, your friends should "Producer/shoot" themselves... LOL... ;D

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As I've said before, are we contributing to the problem by giving too much advice on this forum to newbies? We are teaching them how to solve problems that took us years of experience to work through. We are giving them the answers to the test. Somethings take personal experience to solve but we have shown them which fork in the path to take when the problem arises. Are we not part of the problem ourselves?

I could be wrong mirror, but I can't remember you ever passing on any working advise or techniques here @jwsound, only your personal political POV's. I think there may be some validity to your point but what should we do about it in your opinion? Should we abandon the group? Limit the discussions to how we did it in the old days? Sabotage the new kids with bad info? Personally I doubt much of what we write here will help anyone when it the shit hits the fan on the set. Only experience will help, not the endless gear conversations and minor flame wars.

CrewC

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I actually do quote 10/hr days...but there's a ton of crew and producers around here that think 12 is the norm.

I've been in the game for about 8 years and I've seen the average go from closer to $800/day to closer to $500/day but it seems to have a direct correlation to RED cams and DLSRs and the 2008/2009 economy excuse.

Since I mostly do corporate and web content I'm usually certain to not make as much as you all who do narrative and commercial. The budgets for commercials are in a whole different world!

When I get commercials they're $750-$900/day and I don't have to bargain with them at all. But I don't have as many of those clients.

"Hate to provide any amount of unfortunate rude awakening, but anyone who does actual work is expected to do it for less and less compensation."

"Daniel, do you think this is because of workers like me, or workers like you....?"

Neither actually. Also the fact that my clients/jobs all come from top-notch sound guys who send me on things they would be doing if they weren't already booked tells me workers like me and workers like you have less to do with any of it than any of us thinks.

My statement is far more reflective of the general environment of labor vs. capital however and that's obvious in every industry in the USA. Are the ownership class trying to take too much of the pie? Are the working class bending over more? I dunno. History shows a pretty complete picture of this being a never ending struggle that usually blows up in violence sooner or later. I'd like every one of my days to be $750+ but that's just not the way of it right now. I do strive for that though. Still, I can work 5 days at $550/day and make more than many people I know in a whole month who are managers of stores and restaurants. Is there any sense in that?

Listen, there's nothing wrong with the thought process of 'no one should do sound for less than $X' but keep an objective perspective. We don't all have the same situation.

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@Daniel I worked for that company a good bit this year and got a good rate. Meal penalties, per diems when we travelled, put up in nice hotels, OT, 6th day etc etc. I don't recall if the initial day rate was given for 10 or 12 hours, but being a LA company they did the 8 hours at 1x, 4 hours at 1.5x, then 2x etc. They did guarantee a number of hours that was the initial agreed to day rate.

I worked on one of the shows that is on a cable network though, so maybe it's different business. I didn't get a kit fee because the gear was en route to Philadelphia before I was even hired. They did rent my kit for pickups and I got a fair rate for it. I wasn't making shocking money, but it was something I was more than happy with, and would go work for them again in a heartbeat. Importantly, I never felt like they would grind us down. I had a lot of fun working on the show.

I do agree that there are tons of weasels out there, but I don't know if more of them have found my phone number, or if they are multiplying. If you want a scapegoat, we can go back to blaming the 5D! I have had multiple producers tell me "the camera rental is only $xxx, and I used to pay $XXXX. Technology has made things cheaper so I expect the same reduction in audio kit".

I try to explain that $XXXX cameras can record sound so I only needed a mixer.... and at some point give up on the job. I wish I knew some of these inexperienced college kids with "a zoom and a boom" to send them. That's what they are paying for, and that's what they should get.

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I started to post earlier when this thread was fresh, wish I hadn't been distracted at that moment... Anyway as a newbie I want to contribute my .02...

I was asked by a staff member at the post school I was attending a few years ago if I could help out with sound on a no budget short she was producing, I showed up early that weekend and was handed a DR-100 w/manual, an mkh-60, and a boompole... a few months later while finishing up with school the writer/director of that short film called me to work on a paid 4 day shoot out of town, so I figured out where to rent gear and did the best job I could. It wasn't til after that gig that I really started asking questions, like where does one learn Production Sound, and what should a Production Sound Mixer ask for a day rate???(I realize this is backwards) I'm still asking these questions and for the most part I find new questions more than answers, trouble is as I've mentioned in other threads, and I can't be the only one with this problem, I started out asking the wrong people, I grew up in a city about an hour from L.A. and sure I may know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody who works in the industry, but I never had any contacts until I made them myself, never been on set until I was there to work, and the first of the Sound Mixers(I can count on one hand) that I know today I only met because I saw he'd posted something about mixing on a facebook page and that we had common interests(we're both Christians) and I basically cold called/stalked the guy, between him and another mixer I spent about a year taking jobs that they couldn't/wouldn't take...

Without you sharing your experience with me including these very important discussions about the expectations of producers regarding rates, working conditions etc. and had I not found this forum, I would still be out taking jobs where I was paying to work and unwittingly hurting myself and everyone here, after all in the neighborhood where I grew up if you're making $25/hr you're a real BA... Instead of continuing on that way, for about a year now I've been trying(slipped a couple times out of desperation) to keep my expectations high re rates/working conditions even when it has meant turning down work.

I realize this is a matter of perspective, but from where I'm standing it seems like, building respectful relationships between the seasoned mixers and the greenhorns and sticking to that would go a long way towards remedying this growing problem. Had I been less mature or even just in a bad mood when I first found this forum and had I happened to see hostility toward new people here I may have just dismissed this forum and continued eroding away at the future of all sound mixers....

Yes maybe there are too many new people, I know its been suggested before but hire some of us as utility's or booms and fight for us to be brought on when negotiating with clients, if we are working for you, how could we be working against you ;)

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Hi Everyone,

When I first started figuring rates , I looked at what rental houses were charging, took inventory of my bag and went from there, adding my labor. In calls I get for corporate work from established companies there is usually no question for they understand the cost of doing business. The calls I get from people who have the greatest script ever written ( without a shot list ) that are in it for the fun of it , wanting to have fun and such, well,they usually cut the conversation short and I am sure find a student and rent or borrow gear from a college.

My question to you union members out west and elsewhere, do you set rates with your gear and labor with production and the union gets a percentage ? or is there a set labor rate for a mixer, A2, utility and boom op ? Just curious how this works with your own gear.

Enjoy all the input and discussion here, a very good read

Tom Maloney

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(...) Yes maybe there are too many new people, I know its been suggested before but hire some of us as utility's or booms and fight for us to be brought on when negotiating with clients, if we are working for you, how could we be working against you ;)

Agreed. I'm relatively new to location sound, but please don't pick on someone just because he's new. I always feel like having to duck my head when I log in. :ph34r:

Okay, so I'm relatively new, and where I live there's not many boom ops, mixers or post people. I know a bit of everything, not on a pro level, but I do, and that's how I get my smallish jobs. I'm working my arse off. In the last 5-6 years, I didn't have more than a week off. I do learn the hard way. I'm dedicated. I never went to a forum and whined about having bought this and that how to hook it up - because I do RTFMs. I do digest as many audio books as is humanly possible in the little spare time I have. I make terrible mistakes and get burned, but I don't complain. I have no one to teach me. Weirdly enough, I do give audio courses at my University because I know more about it than the guy who runs the audio studio. He knows which buttons to push, but he has no thorough understanding of it all - because he doesn't work his arse off. He'll be forever stuck in there, just like everyone without dedication and willingness to give it that extra bit of effort. Just an example.

There's one boom op in town whom I consider a bit of a mentor, and even though he doesn't know how to solder an XLR or how it works, I learned a bit from him, and I'm super thankful. Since he's doing more camera work now he refers people to me. I charge pretty low rates - and behold - even I lost a few jobs already because they found someone cheaper. In this 200.000 people town. I wonder how. Probably someone whom I teached at Uni and got the equipment for free there. I never ask my clients how I did. 90% of the time, when listening to their audio, I get the strangest of feedback: See, the levels are a bit low, but it's better than most of the stuff I usually get. Is that a special mixer you're using? No, run of the mill stuff, but have you noticed me working my arse off?

I'm a modest guy who tries to use the search function before posting what might seem like extremely trivial questions (e.g., my confusion about Dialnorm in the Post section). But I have noone else to ask. I'm on my own here. Sorry for the lengthy and unorganized rant, and let me finish off with something hopefully most of us can agree upon: Both old hands and new guys are, if not in the same, then in similar boats here. The common denominator hopefully being dedication to and love for what we do, and not the cost of our equipment. It's amazing to see the number of people who watch a tutorial on a DIY filmmaker site and think there's all to it - and then work for free or credits. At the moment, there's tons of them and it will get worse. But there will be better times. Because everyone wants to be an effin' cameraman or director. Sound is just the interim solution to them. I keep hearing this and it makes me both sick to my stomach and gleeful. If someone wants to keep his knowledge to himself, then so be it. If have no problem giving away what I know (and be it not even that much at all, but thorough basics) - because I know that only one out of ten will even be able to really absorb it, make it part of his routine, live it, and think further. The other nine are passers-by, but this one guy will not stop there. He will read up on it and work his arse off. Like one should. So please don't give me the feeling that I'm one of the newbies who tries to steal anyone's jobs. Man. I'm on a different continent, I'm on my own, and even I (on my low level) lose jobs because they find someone cheaper. And sorry for going totally OT. Cheers, Mike

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...

Yes maybe there are too many new people, I know its been suggested before but hire some of us as utility's or booms and fight for us to be brought on when negotiating with clients, if we are working for you, how could we be working against you ;)

A good post with a discussion-worthy point-of-view.

As a person with a good attitude who is actively working to learn your profession and what proper rates are for both labor and rentals, and someone who is sensitive not to "foul the nest" for everyone by undercutting other sound professionals, you're the type of person I would consider hiring, or recommending, should the opportunity present itself.

What you may not realize is that, you appear to be an exception. The majority of rate discussions encountered with newcomers here usually devolves into a chorus of fledglings asserting adamantly that the low rates they charge are necessary and proper. They put great effort into justifying those rates and equal effort into ignoring numerous experienced voices, by rationalizing that whatever those experienced people are saying doesn't apply to them. They look strictly at the dollars they can get short term and ignore any long term affects they have on the industry as a whole, and other sound mixers as individuals. These are, for the most part, people I would not consider either hiring, or recommending, as they are damaging the future by undercutting others. Theirs is a predatory approach and their actions have an erosional affect on industry incomes -- including both mine and yours.

So, I congratulate you. I hope there are experienced mixers in your locale, who, when the opportunity presents itself, will consider hiring, or recommending, you.

Unfortunately, this industry is seeing a rather large influx of people who grab a Nomad and a mic and try to convince everyone how great they are while, simultaneously, charging rates that ultimately hurt everyone, including them.

I'm sure you'll find there are many seasoned veterans here who appreciate newcomers who are willing to "pay their dues" and grow as professionals in a professional community.

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This rate discussion comes up time and time again and I've mostly been observing the conversations. It seems to me that there is a new reality out there now. Media has become so diversified and saturated. We have more TV stations than ever, Webcasts, Cell phone video, podcasts and the like. Add to that cheaper cameras, and post production tools. Unfortunately it's quantity over quality. There just isn't the money for full rates for every show any more. It's almost like we'd have to turn back the clock to a few network TV stations return to the studio system for movie making and return the internet to the college nerds just to keep our rates where they used to be.

The new reality is that the rate you get will depend on the type of project you are working on and the ladder is big enough for all to climb. What I have observed is that gigs that pay $150- $300 / day all in are probably destined to end up on YouTube or at short film festivals that will be seen by very few people.

$300-$500 / day gigs tend to be shows that end up on smaller cable/TV stations, indie features that may do fairly well on limited screens (with the occasional paranormal activity that breaks into the larger world), and smaller corporate gigs.

Full rate paying jobs will end up on Network TV, show in the multiplexes, and be for the high end corporates, because these kind of jobs actually demand the very high quality of work that are worthy of our full rates and these companies have the budgets and are willing to pay.

The way I see it is that the rate you charge will be determine the type of work you will get. Do you want to live your life on YouTube, Are you happy to work in the world of cable TV? or do you want to be working the bigger shows? Your rate will most likely determine where on the ladder you will be.

When I started out in sound we were all on 28mbps dial up so the YouTube generation hadn't been born. I began in the small cable world and have been successfully working my way up to bigger projects, though I still do smaller cable TV work as well and adjust my rate accordingly. It's not worth my while to do the ultra low stuff so I leave that for the newbies. I didn't do the traditional start as a utility move up to boom op and then become a mixer. (I tried, but it was like banging my head against the wall just getting someone to even give me the opportunity). I self taught, bought myself a small ENG sound package and put in the work and invested in better gear over time to get where I am today.

It is possible to work your way up- raising your rates as you acquire better gear, more experience, and land bigger shows. I know because that's the way I have been doing it. If you're new and you do $150/ Webisode then I doubt you are driving the rates for everyone down, as I doubt that a seasoned mixer would even take that kind of work anyway. The mixer who works on A list block busters isn't likely to take a gig for the home improvement channel. The reverse is also true- the guy doing $150/ day YouTube is probably not qualified to work on Avatar 2

And here's another thought. If full rates were the only rates, then many great lower budget indie movies, and cool little specialist TV shows probably wouldn't get made. (but conversely we'd have less crap media out there too).

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" There are so many newbies logging on here and asking for basic advice so they can get just enough chops to go out and sell themselves... cheap "

and we add, don't sell yourselves cheap! you are now (by virtue of being on jwsoundgroup.net ??) a professionaland should get more $$ for you and your zoom recorder.

BTW, the union 2% raises (they are raises in rates, not COLA's) do not keep up with inflation...

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This rate discussion comes up time and time again and I've mostly been observing the conversations. It seems to me that there is a new reality out there now. Media has become so diversified and saturated. We have more TV stations than ever, Webcasts, Cell phone video, podcasts and the like. Add to that cheaper cameras, and post production tools. Unfortunately it's quantity over quality. There just isn't the money for full rates for every show any more. It's almost like we'd have to turn back the clock to a few network TV stations return to the studio system for movie making and return the internet to the college nerds just to keep our rates where they used to be.

The new reality is that the rate you get will depend on the type of project you are working on and the ladder is big enough for all to climb. What I have observed is that gigs that pay $150- $300 / day all in are probably destined to end up on YouTube or at short film festivals that will be seen by very few people.

$300-$500 / day gigs tend to be shows that end up on smaller cable/TV stations, indie features that may do fairly well on limited screens (with the occasional paranormal activity that breaks into the larger world), and smaller corporate gigs.

Full rate paying jobs will end up on Network TV, show in the multiplexes, and be for the high end corporates, because these kind of jobs actually demand the very high quality of work that are worthy of our full rates and these companies have the budgets and are willing to pay.

The way I see it is that the rate you charge will be determine the type of work you will get. Do you want to live your life on YouTube, Are you happy to work in the world of cable TV? or do you want to be working the bigger shows? Your rate will most likely determine where on the ladder you will be.

When I started out in sound we were all on 28mbps dial up so the YouTube generation hadn't been born. I began in the small cable world and have been successfully working my way up to bigger projects, though I still do smaller cable TV work as well and adjust my rate accordingly. It's not worth my while to do the ultra low stuff so I leave that for the newbies. I didn't do the traditional start as a utility move up to boom op and then become a mixer. (I tried, but it was like banging my head against the wall just getting someone to even give me the opportunity). I self taught, bought myself a small ENG sound package and put in the work and invested in better gear over time to get where I am today.

It is possible to work your way up- raising your rates as you acquire better gear, more experience, and land bigger shows. I know because that's the way I have been doing it. If you're new and you do $150/ Webisode then I doubt you are driving the rates for everyone down, as I doubt that a seasoned mixer would even take that kind of work anyway. The mixer who works on A list block busters isn't likely to take a gig for the home improvement channel. The reverse is also true- the guy doing $150/ day YouTube is probably not qualified to work on Avatar 2

And here's another thought. If full rates were the only rates, then many great lower budget indie movies, and cool little specialist TV shows probably wouldn't get made. (but conversely we'd have less crap media out there too).

+1 that's the way I see it

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There are no jobs. Well, OK "essential trades" and televangelists, aside, in the U.S.. Certainly very few jobs, for the current generation of twenty and thirty year olds, to whom you could advise, that their job, after inception, with minor variation, would be there for forty-fifty years. Dale Carnegie skeels have never been more pertinent. Nearly everything proffered to acquire a job requires sales expertise, at some point. From what Fury has read here, one should comport oneself as an affable, omniscient, near sycophantic and fawning "team" player, to get a start and then, pretty much enjoy what U are doing, as the cache, doesn't seem financially commensurate. Seems, as in the film industry, technology has obviated a fair amount of the learning curve and the tricks of the trade requirements. Now, these are a goodly # of the reasons that few are called and fewer are chosen, for this career.

Essentially untenable, as a long term career, for all, but the current set of progenitors, with rare exception. With all the young turks, no chance to maintain a financially viable wage scale, for more than a small percentage of those in this career, under the current society , in So. Cal., anyway.

Thank you very much

Fury

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Wow, EB, seems like you touched a nerve here. I hope things are going well for you in Cal bro, haven't heard from you in a while. This Friday I'm on a panel discussing the crew experience of making of Winter in the Blood. Anything you want me to impart to the attendees or the directors on behalf of the head of the sound department? :-)

I appreciate all the help, tips, tricks and just plain good common sense I have gotten from my friends and peers here on JWSOUND. Prior to any shoot, I research as much as possible, always download and review the camera manual and always look for potential issues so I am prepared as possible. A lot of the research involves this forum. It has made me a better mixer, no doubt.

Sound requires good equipment but that is just scratching the surface. Good audio also requires mad technical skills, great public relations skills, great people skills, awesome troubleshooting chops, clear communications skills and business savvy all in a pressure cooker situation. Plus, audio is an ART. You must be creative as well as technical, a rare combination of talent and brains Definitely worth some money for the right person. I always think of the sound mixer as the most technically competent person on any set.

I do not think there is enough information on rates. I believe everyone (myself included) is hesitant to put in writing actual numbers but I am going to do that because I would like your feedback and to hear what everyone else is charging if they feel like sharing. PM me if you don't want to share publicly, I really want to be fair to myself, the client and you, my fellow mixers.

My rate in Missoula, MT is $500/10. I also charge $200 a day rental for my basic package, boom, 4 channel mixer, 2 wireless lavs. Additional equipment required makes the rental go up, for example, my Zax hop, IFB, transcription recording etc

I also charge per diem of $45 a day when not working as a local, mileage (55 cents) and if I have to travel to the set, I charge $250 a day for travel.

These rates are always subject to negotiation of course, depending on length of time, whether the producer was my roommate in college or if they are serving tuna subs, etc. I am really interested in hearing if you think these are reasonable rates or if I am way out of line for the profession. I don't want to be part of the problem!

Mike

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There are no jobs. Well, OK "essential trades" and televangelists, aside, in the U.S.. Certainly very few jobs, for the current generation of twenty and thirty year olds, to whom you could advise, that their job, after inception, with minor variation, would be there for forty-fifty years. Dale Carnegie skeels have never been more pertinent. Nearly everything proffered to acquire a job requires sales expertise, at some point. From what Fury has read here, one should comport oneself as an affable, omniscient, near sycophantic and fawning "team" player, to get a start and then, pretty much enjoy what U are doing, as the cache, doesn't seem financially commensurate. Seems, as in the film industry, technology has obviated a fair amount of the learning curve and the tricks of the trade requirements. Now, these are a goodly # of the reasons that few are called and fewer are chosen, for this career.

Essentially untenable, as a long term career, for all, but the current set of progenitors, with rare exception. With all the young turks, no chance to maintain a financially viable wage scale, for more than a small percentage of those in this career, under the current society , in So. Cal., anyway.

Thank you very much

Fury

??? What?

CrewC

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There are no jobs. Well, OK "essential trades" and televangelists, aside, in the U.S.. Certainly very few jobs, for the current generation of twenty and thirty year olds, to whom you could advise, that their job, after inception, with minor variation, would be there for forty-fifty years. Dale Carnegie skeels have never been more pertinent. Nearly everything proffered to acquire a job requires sales expertise, at some point. From what Fury has read here, one should comport oneself as an affable, omniscient, near sycophantic and fawning "team" player, to get a start and then, pretty much enjoy what U are doing, as the cache, doesn't seem financially commensurate. Seems, as in the film industry, technology has obviated a fair amount of the learning curve and the tricks of the trade requirements. Now, these are a goodly # of the reasons that few are called and fewer are chosen, for this career.

Essentially untenable, as a long term career, for all, but the current set of progenitors, with rare exception. With all the young turks, no chance to maintain a financially viable wage scale, for more than a small percentage of those in this career, under the current society , in So. Cal., anyway.

Thank you very much

Fury

are you a real person?

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I think it's an unrealistic idea that someone working on a web series, could possibly expect a Producer to pay the same rate that AFMY enjoys.

Rich Van Dyke

Response is to everyone, not Richard...

I am in no way saying that folks working on smaller shows makes the same commercial rates out of L.A... I AM saying that given the cost of the gear, and the fact that the line IS blurring as to what is being shot for what type of release, just charge accordingly... be fair to yourself, your family, your craft and all who work in it... PROTECT your pay rate.... Your pay rate IS YOUR PAY.... Simple enough.... People squabble over pay raises in two years of a dollar an hour, and we give up hundreds a day... Why is this...?

I still get called on gigs that are over the shoulder, 12 hr days with 4 radios, and multitrack recording with hops, sync boxes, comteks etc.... but some people do all this for at $400.00 for everything? That although a different type of show is too little for that amount of gear including your rate as a mixer. I think many will agree.... It used to be much much more.... and is rapidly going down...

Also, in my commercial world, in L.A. the same is happening, people going out for 600 flat for gear.... That's not how we do it, that is not the norm, that has not been the norm and with costs as they are in life, that better not become the norm.... But that said, guys are doing it, and going lower.... same situation, different type of show....

This is happening across the board, in all areas.... until as I said, either people stop, or the producers feel bad about the low rates they are offering.... Now I ask.... When do you think they will start to feel bad....

Like BiBis speech the other day at the UN, with the cartoon bomb..... where is YOUR red line.... mine was passed a long time ago, that's why I am trying to ralley the troops in all areas of sound... Be aware of it, fight it, question it, hone your bargaining skills, think about what you are doing... think about where we are going, think about finding a new job after you finally figure out the whole sound recording career thing... because if this continues, you, me and the rest of us will have to.... I am already thinking about that.... I have little faith in all of the people out there to actually stand firm.... I fear a huge collapse... I see a huge collapse...

Last note, for all you reality people, I am in awe of you.... Over the shoulder tons of wireless, many times one person deal, long hours and brutal days.... You all deserve TWICE the pay or more than you are getting.... Only a sound person understands that.... I do and think you guys and gals do a terrific job, really... Fight on..

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AFMY makes some really good points.

The problem with this different tier approach (and, of course there are different tiers) is that too many beginners are using it as an excuse for undercutting other people's rates. That hurts everyone.

If another person has charged $700 a day for labor/rental total for a given type of web video, then rationalizing that, "Hey, it's just a web video so I'm fine charging only $400," is both disingenuous and damaging to the industry. It becomes a cop out for stabbing other mixers in the back. It also diminishes the future of the person doing it, but they're too green to realize it.

Over the years I've made good money doing all the types of videos that some here have claimed merit only low dollars -- web videos, small cable shows, quickie corporate gigs, even some low budget features that paid properly. So, if all of those categories are now only offering starvation wages, they've had some help from people in our industry.

For clarity, I see indie films as a variable landscape that can be a proper place for a beginner to learn while making only the low dollars they're convinced they deserve. Any type of corporate or commercial gig is not.

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