Rainier Davenport Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Hello All, The DOP wants to test shoot a special effect in camera by shooting at several different frame rates 18, 15 and 12.5 f.p.s. What is unusual for me is that I have been requested to record the dialogue beforehand and replay the dialogue also at 18, 15 and 12.5 f.p.s. Essentially the actors will be miming to their own playback off speed. The DOP is going for the jilted jittery effect as the scene is a flash back. My problem is playing back the dialogue at the different frame rate. Protools LE 6.2.2 is the version I have and I can use Protools very basically to set up sessions, record and playback. If I was to use Protools to change the frame rates, the Time Compression/Expansion 'Ratio' would be the setting to change. When I record normally at 25 f.p.s the 'Ratio' is set at 1.000:1, so my question is what do you change the 'Ratio' to in order to playback at 18, 15 and 12.5 frames per second? Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Depends - does the DOP intend to play back at 18 etc fps? This gives a jittery look. Filming at 18fps and playing back at 25fps gives the impression of fast motion (Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan used to do it all the time for fight scenes), unless you're acting and talking in slightly slow motion. If you want the dialogue to appear in normal speed, when shot at 18fps and played back at 25 fps, you would play the audio to them at 72% speed (slower than real time) or a ratio of 0.72:1 (18/25 is 0.72). To look realistic in movement, they would also need to do their body movements more slowly as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I would use Courtney Goodin's BWF-Widget Pro for on-set playback: I'd approach the project very similar to the way I would a music video. Note that it's very, very hard for most singers to go more than 25%-30% faster than normal. There's no way they can adjust to 100% slower or faster than normal on the set -- to me, it's just not humanly possible. I also think the production team might want to explore the idea of just shooting at normal speed and then using various tricks in editing and visual effects to simulate the jerky look of jittery playback. I also think that expecting an audience to watch a sequence like this that runs more than a minute or so is going to be very trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Marc, this goes for 4:30! All filmed at real time (apart from the extreme slo-mo), the band had to sing the song EXTREMELY SLOWLY so when sped up by a factor of (up to 15 I think), it was in sync. Obviously it's not accurate, because there sometimes MINUTES in between syllables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 slow it down in PT as a percentage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Davenport Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 slow it down in PT as a percentage. Could you explain how to do this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 im not sure with your ancient pt version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Do you have the TimeShift plugin in AudioSuite (was that in PT 6?)? You can select sections of audio, and slow them down to a percentage of real time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Davenport Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 No, unfortunately the plug ins are long lost. I have been quite successful with changing the ratio though. If i change the ratio to 0.724:1 it speeds up and is faster. If I change the ratio to 1.724:1 it is slower. But if I enter your suggestion of 0.72:1 nothing happens. Am I doing it wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 I think the best response is - you are in over your head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Davenport Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 I think the best response is - you are in over your head. I thought that was obvious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Where are you entering this ratio? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Audiosuite > Other > Time Compression / Expansion. Select the section of audio to process. Open this plugin. Work out the ratio (this plugin is reversed from what I worked it out as), For 18FPS shoot speed, 25FPS playback speed, you'd want a ratio of 1.388:1 in the box. That should make the audio region LONGER, which is what you want IF you want the dialogue to look normal when played back at 25FPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Davenport Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Thanks Justin, you are completely correct! You have made my day! Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 The Audacity program can also pull down or pull up a wave file and accomplish the described affect. The files of different speeds can then be saved with a descriptive name for instant recall and playback. I've used Audacity for this very thing many times. gt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Thanks Glen, that was going to be my next suggestion, should the Time/Compression Expansion plugin (which comes WITH ProTools) have not been available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Davenport Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Hello Glen, By coincidence I just ordered a Meon LiFE from the Trew Audio website for this job, can't wait for it to arrive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 " The DOP wants to test shoot a special effect in camera " is this a real, experienced DP, or some kid with a new toy ?? "slow it down in PT as a percentage. Could you explain how to do this? " basic arithmetic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 All filmed at real time (apart from the extreme slo-mo), the band had to sing the song EXTREMELY SLOWLY so when sped up by a factor of (up to 15 I think), it was in sync. Obviously it's not accurate, because there sometimes MINUTES in between syllables. Well, I didn't say it was impossible -- only that it's very, very hard to do. It kind of boils down to a gimmick, after a certain point. I'd argue, "work on making a great song with a good hook and memorable lyrics... don't worry about the tricks used to sell the music video." (And I'm a guy who worked on several hundred major music videos and concert projects in the 1980s and early 1990s.) My fear with a long take would be that it would slide out of sync after a certain time, unless the percentage speed changes were extremely exact. Even then, there's going to be "artist's error" -- the euphemism for human lip-sync being a little rubbery over time, just to their tendency to slip up on a line here and there. We did some interesting slo-mo stuff on this 1992 video, Elton John's "The One," where the live-action was slo-mo but the rear-projection -- I believe video projected against billowing curtains -- was sped up by 50%, then the final picture was played at normal speed. Very complicated to figure out, but the production company had their act together and it worked very well (#9 hit): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 I did this a few months ago. it was all done with motion control and rate changes, no green screen. We even had a few reverse playback shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 Marc, It looks like on yours the projection was sped up 50% as well as the cameras ran 50% faster, then played back at normal rate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 Easy way: Audacity and some arithmetic. Has worked great for me speed wise in both directions. Record in your TC and if you do a 2 channel playback you can have TC at the correct speed to send to a slate. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 Marc, It looks like on yours the projection was sped up 50% as well as the cameras ran 50% faster, then played back at normal rate Yes, exactly. I seem to recall that each 1000' film load only had one take of the song (4-minute song at double speed). We played the picture back at normal speed (23.98) in the telecine bay. My memory is that it didn't stay in sync for more than a minute, but no shot lasted longer than 10-15 seconds -- which is pretty typical for a music video -- so the editor just tweaked it all in the edit bay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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