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664 vs. Nomad Lite


Twade

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The sonic quality of the two machines is going to be the most similar thing about them, if not, for all practical purposes, identical.

GlenTrew

Interesting.. much earlier in the year I was testing a Zaxcom Nomad 6, and had a 552 alongside it. I ran a MKH416 through both. Running through the Nomad it sounded very clinical and clean; but lacked in the high end presence to my ears. Listening to the same mic through the 552 in the same environment gave a very different experience. There could be many reasons for this.. and i'm also aware it could be trickery by my ears, but I wanted to like the Nomad when I was testing it. I did like the features, just not the sonic quality and that was a deal breaker for me. There was another sound recordist with me who also agreed on the differences, also much preferring the sound of the 552.

I obviously have not been able to compare a 664 directly to the Nomad Lite in a similar fashion, but in a very very rough test I could do of the 664 at Plaza Expo (albeit with an unusual mic and cheap headphones), it seemed to perform as expected. I am sure both machines have a sonic quality that is more than enough for the work we do, but I would still very much like to hear a side-by-side comparison before making a final choice.

~Mark.

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Running through the Nomad it sounded very clinical and clean; but lacked in the high end presence to my ears. Listening to the same mic through the 552 in the same environment gave a very different experience.

Did you make the comparison by listening to the files on playback through speakers?

Or were you listening with headphones using the playback amp in the respective recorders?

Just speculating that the differences might be related to the headphone circuits rather than the actual performance of the recorder.

Of course, accurate monitoring is important as well. But accurate recording is arguably more important.

David

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Or were you listening with headphones using the playback amp in the respective recorders?

Just speculating that the differences might be related to the headphone circuits rather than the actual performance of the recorder.

David

Very good point, I was indeed using headphones from the recorders. You are correct the recording sound is arguably more important, but headphones is how i'll be listening to unit all day every day.

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Interesting.. much earlier in the year I was testing a Zaxcom Nomad 6, and had a 552 alongside it. I ran a MKH416 through both. Running through the Nomad it sounded very clinical and clean; but lacked in the high end presence to my ears. Listening to the same mic through the 552 in the same environment gave a very different experience. There could be many reasons for this.. and i'm also aware it could be trickery by my ears, but I wanted to like the Nomad when I was testing it. I did like the features, just not the sonic quality and that was a deal breaker for me. There was another sound recordist with me who also agreed on the differences, also much preferring the sound of the 552.

I obviously have not been able to compare a 664 directly to the Nomad Lite in a similar fashion, but in a very very rough test I could do of the 664 at Plaza Expo (albeit with an unusual mic and cheap headphones), it seemed to perform as expected. I am sure both machines have a sonic quality that is more than enough for the work we do, but I would still very much like to hear a side-by-side comparison before making a final choice.

~Mark.

in a similar test i preferred the clean nomad sound.

I liked the 744t and 788t more then 552. but since SD are dropping input transformers, the 664 might have sound similar to the 7 series.

Not saying one is better then the other i just prefer the transformer less sound .

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Question... and this is a toughie... Which SOUNDS better?

Twade, can you do a side by side recording? Take the same mic source into both recorders at the same time, and post it up for us to hear! Even more fun would be to make it a blind test.. don't tell us which recorder it us, just see who prefers which sound. Then tell us. Whichever one I like the sound of more, i'll go buy it. The logistics in both are more than good enough to work with on a day to day basis.

~Mark.

The answer to the question “Which SOUNDS better?” is not a simple one. Many factors other than microphone preamp noise and distortion are important to providing superior sound.

These 2 machines are as different as they can be under the hood. The Nomad represents a new way to mix audio leaving behind the limitations that have become acceptable in all analog mixers.

If the audio falls into the right input range for the analog mixer then the audio will sound fine. If it does not fall into the range of the mixers input then the result will be either low audio level, input clipping or input limiter distortion. This type of distortion often effects audio quality in a negative way.

Because the Nomad has Neverclip TM (patent pending) the input limiter distortion common to all analog mixers with fixed parameter limiters is no longer a limitation. Limiters generally don’t sound good. Some limiters just sound less bad. Nomads Neverclip design has eliminated input limiter distortion and the need for any input limiting.

The Nomad is a 100% transformer-less design. Input transformers are a bad idea because they introduce low frequency distortion. The use of output transformers still introduces the same distortion but now only for the camera. The problem with this is the audio sent to camera is different in quality from that of the internal recording. Nomad always records with the same audio quality that is output to camera.

All of Nomads inputs and outputs are time and phase accurate for both output to camera and internal recording no matter the source or destination. Input delay is included on each input. Phasing problems that take place when for instance a plant mic is mixed with a LAV mic to provide some ambiance are eliminated when the delay function is used.

Two notch filters per channel can dramatically improve audio quality eliminating HMI noise, power buzz and other periodic sounds that can ruin a track. This type of problem is one that up to now has been something that the sound mixer can only note and send to post. The 2 notch filters represent a real and valuable tool for improving the audio quality offered to a client.

Nomads look ahead soft knee compressors with individual track enable give the sound mixer the ability to tailor the sound of any track to the needs of the client. It is like having a studio quality compressor for each input, output and recorded track. This is another tool that can add to creating the desired sound.

There are many more advantages to an all digital mixer recorder over an analog mixer. The Nomad info on the Zaxcom web site can add clarity to the difference in audio quality between Nomad and analog mixing solutions. The one thing I can be sure of is nothing sounds like a Nomad.

Glenn Sanders

President Zaxcom Inc.

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The Nomad represents a new way to mix audio leaving behind the limitations that have become acceptable in all analog mixers.

Not all!

If the audio falls into the right input range for the analog mixer then the audio will sound fine. If it does not fall into the range of the mixers input then the result will be either low audio level, input clipping or input limiter distortion. This type of distortion often effects audio quality in a negative way.

SQN mixers have a greater input range than Nomad, even with NeverClip.

Because the Nomad has Neverclip TM (patent pending) the input limiter distortion common to all analog mixers with fixed parameter limiters is no longer a limitation. Limiters generally don’t sound good. Some limiters just sound less bad. Nomads Neverclip design has eliminated input limiter distortion and the need for any input limiting.

So when NeverClip allows the input to 'exceed 0dBFS' at the input, how do you prevent any of the outputs from clipping if not by reducing the trim, the fader or applying one of the multiple 'needless' limiters?

SQNs have no input limiters.

The Nomad is a 100% transformer-less design. Input transformers are a bad idea because they introduce low frequency distortion. The use of output transformers still introduces the same distortion but now only for the camera. The problem with this is the audio sent to camera is different in quality from that of the internal recording. Nomad always records with the same audio quality that is output to camera.

SQNs have no input or output transformers.

The one thing I can be sure of is nothing sounds like a Nomad.

I bet.

Rob Finch

SQN

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Sound Devices .vs Zaxcom Lovers

Great photos, Vasileios! Puts it all into perspective.

As far as I'm concerned, this is just a BMW vs. Mercedes vs. Lexus vs. Cadillac comparison. All good in their own way, each with good and bad issues in regards to operation, features, cost, and so on. It's good to have choices.

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The Nomad is a 100% transformer-less design. Input transformers are a bad idea because they introduce low frequency distortion. The use of output transformers still introduces the same distortion but now only for the camera. The problem with this is the audio sent to camera is different in quality from that of the internal recording. Nomad always records with the same audio quality that is output to camera.

Glenn Sanders

President Zaxcom Inc.

Just to clarify a few points:

For those who see the words distortion and automatically think its a terrible thing that should be avoided at all costs... What most people consider "warmth" is, in fact, harmonic distortion. What most people prefer about film over digital video is compression and distortion. Why most (realize it or not) prefer music that is recorded through transformers to analog tape, can be attributed again to frequency dependent dynamic compression and distortion. And yes, running an audio signal through iron can add a slight amount of this distortion... But many find this to be a sonically pleasing type of distortion, not an offensive one.

If you're recording to a camera, trust me, the amount of distortion introduced by a transformer isolated output will be imperceptible. To take that a step further... Transformer isolation can really save your ass if you have to interface with a variety of gear with unknown input and grounding schemes.

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What is Neverclip other than building a lot of headroom into the input amp? Which designs like SQN already have anyway. Quite frankly I can only remember once, with an old Fostex DAT machine, having any problem with input clipping or distortion. So I rather think of it as a non-issue with modern kit, and more of a sales pitch than anything else. If distortion is an issue with limiters, then you still have that anyway with record and output limiters. (Conversely if those limiters are so good, then you could have them on the inputs too...)

It seems to me that it is more convenient for decreasing the amount of hardware on the Nomad, and that is a matter of preference for users. I like the SQN/SD way of having the controls you always reach for implemented manually with knobs and switches, avoiding having to use software functions whilst running and gunning. That appears to be a critical difference to me, though I guess it depends on what you get used to.

However, Zaxcom's MO puts me off somewhat - the PR, not the machines. There seems to be an implication in their recent comments that other machines (guess which) are not phase aligned at the outputs. That was answered, and I don't believe it is an issue. So why raise it? As for input delay, well others also implement this. And I believe messing about in the field with notch filtering is absurd, where it can be destructive, when it is very much easier to do it with software on a computer afterwards, non-destructively.

Even so, the Nomad has a good case to present. Just doesn't need the smoke and mirrors, or the sniping at others.

My 2c.

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I am happy to see conformation of bus output timing on other machines and was only referencing the time coherence of our products inputs to its outputs in any configuration.

The notch filters are very effective as they can be used on each input to make a better mix that might not then have to be remixed in post. There also might not be time or budget for such a remix session.

Glenn

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And I believe messing about in the field with notch filtering is absurd, where it can be destructive, when it is very much easier to do it with software on a computer afterwards, non-destructively.

Valid point, but the notches have saved me in a few situations. One example is a wide shot "oner" (no other coverage). Talent was too far apart to boom both. The furthest one was wired but was standing right next to an old TV that had to be on (TV was inches from the lav). It emitted a LOUD 10k or so high pitch squeal. I was able to notch it out almost 100% and was therefore able to make a nice sounding mix track that otherwise would have sounded terrible.

The notches are just another powerful tool, but like many things it could be used incorrectly. In my mind, that's not a reason not to have it. Obviously not good for all situations, but having the option there isn't really "absurd".

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the notch filter can be a good stuff, but it's hard to use it in a hurry. Don't know how we could make it easier ... first to identify wich frequencies and to scroll to them more quickly !

Just need a faster way to scroll trough freqs.

But some kind of auto detection when you run room tone "if possible" will be great.

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What is Neverclip other than building a lot of headroom into the input amp? Which designs like SQN already have anyway. Even so, the Nomad has a good case to present.

Just doesn't need the smoke and mirrors,

My 2c.

No offense but I don't think you understand what the neverclip does...comparing an Analog to digital technology "neverclip" to an all analog mixer "sqn"makes no sense. Have you tried the neverclip yourself?

When the analog front end going in to the analog to digital converter overloads you get digital distortion. If limiter is engaged at the analog front end it gives you limiter artifacts. Using neverclip preserves the purity of the sound while increasing the dynamic range.

Setting gain levels is notas critical. I remember when using 552 recording I constantly had to find the best ratio between dynamic range and limiter amount.

Never clip reduces transient peaks as the level reaches 0 dBFS.Regular AD converters require a lot head room in their signal path to handle such peaks.

Neumann/sennheiser use similar technology in their digital microphones.

If zaxcom integrate the never clip in all of their wireless transmitters will be in my opinion one of the greatest achievements in modern production sound. I don't know a single person that likes the limiters in wireless TX

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" we still call it the gas pedal. "

yep, and people still "dial" telephone numbers...(on a pad)

" is Neverclip other than building a lot of headroom into the input amp? " = " Using neverclip preserves the purity of the sound while increasing the dynamic range. "

. best to leave explaining that stuff to Jack

" a single person that likes the limiters in wireless TX "

FCC requirement

Edited by studiomprd
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Valid point, but keep in mind that the Notch filters are post fade only.

Are you positive about this? This is not stated in the manual, plus I nevert heard official word from Zaxcom that the notch filters are post fader only. I recall that early on they were pre fade, and a change to that has to my knowledge never been announced. I would welcome an official statement about this.

Another point: notch filters in theory are great to have on set. But they scroll in 1 or 10 Hz (when pressing menu button and turning at the same time! can be very painful!) steps. This in my opinion is absolutely ridiculous. I suggested to Zaxcom several times to make it 10/100 Hz steps, which can't be hard to implement, but this was ignored unfortunately. From my experience, a notch filter than you cannot scroll quickly is useless. My hearing doesn't tell me if an HMI noise is at 9000, 11000 or 13000 Hz. Typing in 5-digit numbers is also not useful in practice - between takes!

So Zaxcom, please please please: change the frequency steps for the notch filters to 10/100!

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Not all!

SQN mixers have a greater input range than Nomad, even with NeverClip.

So when NeverClip allows the input to 'exceed 0dBFS' at the input, how do you prevent any of the outputs from clipping if not by reducing the trim, the fader or applying one of the multiple 'needless' limiters?

SQNs have no input limiters.

SQNs have no input or output transformers.

I bet.

Rob Finch

SQN

As a long time SQN owner and recent Nomad convert I have to agree. I'm nowhere near competent enough on the engineering of these things to discuss the technicalities, but I can say this - in all the years I've owned my SQN 5 I've very, very rarely had the occasion to actually distort the output signal, however hot the input. SQN limiters are simply fabulous and highly transparent. I could happily 'tickle' the limiters all day on my SQN and still have pleasing sounding audio. Not the case on either the Sound Devices machines I've used or my new Nomad, where it has certainly seemed possible to achieve clipping on the outputs with a sudden 'whisper to shout' talent. Note this is not distortion at the microphone end. Perhaps I need to alter the limiter settings, but I have attempted to set them up to resemble the SQN architecture as much as is possible. I'm aware that I need more time to play with my Nomad, but so far I'm really not seeing what Neverclip is giving me that I didn't already have on my SQN...

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On a job recently, noticed a nasty whine coming from a 1K light fired up a spectrum analyser app on the Galaxy 3 held the phone close to the light and could see a spike in the 5kHz range. Scrolled to notch filter on Nomad and dialled in 5000 engage filter and whine gone. By pressing the respective buttons you get the numerical value, twice for 0 as it's grouped with 8, it took less than 5 seconds.

Trevor McKenna

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The Notch filters are on both pre and post fader tracks. Adjusting them is both in 1Hz and 10Hz steps. You can easily enter the frequency with the keypad to get where you need to be quickly. We are looking at a change to 5Hz and 50Hz steps above 1000Hz.

I constantly get feedback from mixers who have had the Notch filters make a significant difference in the quality of the tracks they have delivered. It is one of Nomads best bits.

Glenn

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Are you positive about this? This is not stated in the manual, plus I nevert heard official word from Zaxcom that the notch filters are post fader only. I recall that early on they were pre fade, and a change to that has to my knowledge never been announced. I would welcome an official statement about this.

I stand corrected. Just did a quick test and the notch filters are currently pre-fade and DO effect the iso's. I remember asking Jack or Howy either on this forum or the Zax forum and them saying it was only on the post fade tracks, but I can't find it. I must have read wrong. I believe they did say it was going to be an option in the future to select pre or post. I'll see if I can bring it up again and remind them of that change, because it really would be nice to have it affect the mix track only.

I'll edit my original post so I don't contribute to misinformation for others.

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