Setting Input Limiter on Lectrosonics Digital Hybrid (400 Series) For Singers

[AlanK]

I have a question about setting the proper transmitter modulation level for singers. My assumption going into this discussion is that some limiting (which improves the S/N ratio) for a speaker delivering normal dialog would not be noticed. I’m questioning if that same limiting for a singer MIGHT be a negative.

From the SMQV manual (& similar for the LMa manual):

“A DSP-controlled analog audio limiter is employed be­fore the A-D converter. The limiter has a range of more than 30 dB for excellent overload protection.”

“It is important to set the gain (audio level) high enough to achieve full modulation during louder peaks in the audio. The limiter can handle over 30 dB of level above full modulation, so with an optimum setting, the LEDs will flash red during use. If the LEDs never flash red, the gain is too low. In the table below, +0 dB indicates full modulation.”

In that table below, 0 dB occurs when both LED’s flash green, which is full modulation, & which I interpret to mean the maximum modulation without any limiting-related compression.

“Observe the Modulation LEDs while speaking or singing into the microphone at the same voice level that will be used during use. While holding the AU­DIO button, press the UP or DOWN arrow buttons until the both the -20 and -10 LEDs glow green, with the -20 LED occasionally flickering red. This will maximize the signal to noise ratio of the system with full modulation and provide subtle limiting to prevent overload and audible compression.”

Lectro LED's.pdf

If the -20 dB LED is flickering red, you are setting the system up for modulation peaks that are up to 10 dB above the distortionless modulation level & are getting some soft limiting.

So my question as it related to singers, is this noticeable or undesirable?

Thanks,

--Alan

[Chris Lange]

Singing is often run through a compressor, and I'd imagine a small amount of limiting wouldn't be noticable.

However for best results, before you record follow the Lectro instructions (get the singer to sing their loudest part and set the transmitter so that the -20 flashes red only at the loudest point) but then back the gain off a bit from there - performers are generally always louder during their actual performance than soundcheck.

If in doubt, I'd go with less gain. Lectros have good S/N ratio and you can't 'un-limit' afterwards.

[jason porter]

yes, I agree with setting the gain on the side of caution. The 411a's sound very clean even with the gain on my 302 all the way up (an Tx input set very conservatively)

[VM]

I have always found the lectro's Led diagram unclear.

So I am blindly following Lectro's instructions and it works but I would like to know :

Leds are written 20 dB, 10 dB...Which kind of dB ?

Is it dB before clipping if there were no limiter ? dB before limiters action ? dBu ? dBV ? dBfs ?

[Chris Lange]

I have always found the lectro's Led diagram unclear.

So I am blindly following Lectro's instructions and it works but I would like to know :

Leds are written 20 dB, 10 dB...Which kind of dB ?

Is it dB before clipping if there were no limiter ? dB before limiters action ? dBu ? dBV ? dBfs ?

Not totally sure about this, but I believe the LEDs are post limiting. When one or both lights are green the signal is below 0dB and no limiting is applied. Above 0dB the transmitter starts to limit and this is when one or both of the lights turn red.

The Lectro instructions are basically getting you to set your level so that you use the whole un-limited part of the scale during general use, and are slightly limited during a louder sound.

[Marc Wielage]

So my question as it related to singers, is this noticeable or undesirable?

Not to me, no. If you wanted the absolute highest quality vocals (like for a studio recording), I'd eschew the wireless and go with a hard wire. But in the real world, I think conservative levels will work OK.

Note that if you're using an SMQV, this won't work with a hand-held condensor mic. For that, you'd need an HM or an HH plug-on. If it's a lav, no problem with the SMQV.

[AlanK]

Not to me, no. If you wanted the absolute highest quality vocals (like for a studio recording), I'd eschew the wireless and go with a hard wire. But in the real world, I think conservative levels will work OK.Note that if you're using an SMQV, this won't work with a hand-held condensor mic. For that, you'd need an HM or an HH plug-on. If it's a lav, no problem with the SMQV.

This is for musical theatre use, so I'd certainly use a quality lav with the transmitter.

I guess I really should ask another question. I’m using this as my PERSONAL wireless system for use in community musical theater. I’m connecting my equipment to the rest of the community-theater sound equipment, such as their mixed bag of wireless stuff, crappy lavs, mixer, amp, speakers, etc.

I currently have a Sennheiser G3 500 Series. Since I know how to properly handle my equipment unlike so many of the other actors, my mic never pops, crackles, or drops out. If I make the move to a Lectrosonics Digital Hybrid system, will I be able to hear a noticeable audio quality difference vs. the Sennheiser I already have? I.e. would I be throwing $ away?

Thanks, Alan

[Alan H. Chang]

This is for musical theatre use, so I'd certainly use a quality lav with the transmitter.

I guess I really should ask another question. I’m using this as my PERSONAL wireless system for use in community musical theater. I’m connecting my equipment to the rest of the community-theater sound equipment, such as their mixed bag of wireless stuff, crappy lavs, mixer, amp, speakers, etc.

I currently have a Sennheiser G3 500 Series. Since I know how to properly handle my equipment unlike so many of the other actors, my mic never pops, crackles, or drops out. If I make the move to a Lectrosonics Digital Hybrid system, will I be able to hear a noticeable audio quality difference vs. the Sennheiser I already have? I.e. would I be throwing $ away?

Thanks, Alan

Yes, you will HEAR a noticeable audio quality difference. The biggest difference is when the actors are belting through your limiters, you'll want to return those Sennheisers after using all Lectros on a show, any show or musical.

Thanks, Alan^2

[Chris Lange]

If I make the move to a Lectrosonics Digital Hybrid system, will I be able to hear a noticeable audio quality difference vs. the Sennheiser I already have? I.e. would I be throwing $ away?

Lectros sound better than the Senn Evolution series. However when running great sounding wireless through a mediocre PA, you can loose some of that benefit.

The Sennheiser G3 500 with proper gain setup and good lav are great lower budget performers, and likely sound better than a lot of the other wireless being used along side - sound quality is often comparative.

Though having said that I'd never put anyone off buying Lectro. Tough, great sound and you can get a smaller bodypack than the G3.

[studiomprd]

Hi, and welcome...

" I’m questioning if that same limiting for a singer MIGHT be a negative... So my question as it related to singers, is this noticeable or undesirable?."

it might be, but that would be subjective...

so it depends...

considering your technical experience, I'd clearly suggest following the instructions!

" If I make the move to a Lectrosonics Digital Hybrid system, will I be able to hear a noticeable audio quality difference vs. the Sennheiser I already have? "

probably, though it depends... If you have any doubts, try the "dreaded key test".

" would I be throwing $ away? "

no

"The Sennheiser G3 500 "

the G3 series 100, 300, and 500 are pretty much the same hardware, but with additional capabilities (like more freq's preprogrammed) in the firmware.

[Mark Orusa]

... I’m using this as my PERSONAL wireless system for use in community musical theater. I’m connecting my equipment to the rest of the community-theater sound equipment, such as their mixed bag of wireless stuff, crappy lavs, mixer, amp, speakers, etc.

I currently have a Sennheiser G3 500 Series... If I make the move to a Lectrosonics Digital Hybrid system, will I be able to hear a noticeable audio quality difference vs. the Sennheiser I already have? I.e. would I be throwing $ away?

Thanks, Alan

If you are only hearing the wireless through a crappy mixer, crappy amp, and crappy 15" speakers with 2" horns on sticks then you might not hear any difference. If you are recording it and playing it back later in a studio for video release then you might. You may also want to consider Zaxcom wireless while you're at it. The audio quality is arguably better than Lectrosonics, if that is what you are after.

Mark O.

[Steve Foy]

"You may also want to consider Zaxcom wireless while you're at it. The audio quality is arguably better than Lectrosonics, if that is what you are after."

Seriously Mark, making comments like that won't enhance your credibility one little bit. At this point you should probably disclose any affiliations that you have with Zaxcom.

[Alan H. Chang]

If you are recording it and playing it back later in a studio for video release then you might. You may also want to consider Zaxcom wireless while you're at it. The audio quality is arguably better than Lectrosonics, if that is what you are after.

I absolutely have no doubt that Zaxcom wireless sounds arguably better than Lectros, but look at the scenario here. It's a musical. If sound quality was the case, wouldn't Broadway have done all the changes to Zaxcom off the bat? As suggested by Senator, even the dreaded key test was revealing between Shure URs and Lectros (been there done that). When the limiter starts kicking in, the list of wireless models automatically starts to get very small indeed, and that's just one example that I'll throw out. A square peg never fits into a circle peg. For Shure URs their sound quality isn't up there compared to Zaxcom and Lectrosonics, yet, but one of the most important reasons that many events pick Shure UR series or Sennheiser is because 1) they can fit lots of channels into a small spectrum of fqy, 2) rider friendly all over the world, 3) many people know the lingo of Shures and Sennheisers due to their large exposure in the live and stage world. Not belowing Zaxcom nor favoring Lectrosonics even though I use them daily, but use the tools that best fits the situations.

What I would love to see is more Zaxcom in this industry and compare the results of their NeverClip with other top models.

[RScottATL]

I use Lectros everyday and most of the time the performance is totally solid. Every now and again, the analog modulation scheme has me wishing for something better. Either futzing when in a room with video transmitters (even after coordination) or when the transmitters must use low modulation (in the case of a very dynamic performance or less than ideal pack gain setting). I can totally agree that Lectro could sound better. For most, though, there is no better combo of build quality, price, features, service and range. Zaxcom seems to be the top dog for transmission quality, but there are many notes from users regarding range and price that are worth considering as well. Each person has their own set of needs. If audio quality is top of the list far above all others, I think Zaxcom is the way to go.

[studiomprd]

" The audio quality is arguably better than Lectrosonics, "

when dealing at that level of differences in audio quality, (barely detectable to undetectable and purely subjective) then there are many other factors that will come into play long before that argument actually begins!

" more Zaxcom in this industry and compare the results of their NeverClip with other top models. "

if you refer to wireless, then note that NeverClip us not a feature of Zaxcom's Wireless line, and of course comparisons are always being made, and anyone if free to make them, and at any time.

" the dreaded key test was revealing between Shure URs and Lectros (been there done that). When the limiter starts kicking in..., "

to clarify, the dreaded key test is more about the companding artifacts than the limiter... Shure's are batteling with AT and Sennheiser in the live performance and HOW market segments, where it tends to be more about the capsules and their sound/reputations than other subtle (in those contexts) factors

[AlanK]

I absolutely have no doubt that Zaxcom wireless sounds arguably better than Lectros, but look at the scenario here. It's a musical. If sound quality was the case, wouldn't Broadway have done all the changes to Zaxcom off the bat?

I recently returned from NYC (we got caught up in Sandy, but that’s another story) where we saw 8 Broadway shows (7 were musicals) & 2 Off-Broadway shows. I went & spoke to all but one of the sound folks for the Broadway shows during intermission, & EVERY one was Sennheiser SK5212 (or SK5212-II) transmitters & compatible receivers. Sennheiser seems to “own” Broadway, & they are running analog systems. Digital systems arguably may have better audio quality, but the Sennheisers seem to be good enough, or have a captive enough cliental.

I have to wonder how much difference in audio quality between the SK5212/receiver and my G3 system. There’s certainly a big difference in cost.

[RPSharman]

Back to the OP...

I find the SM limiting to be more objectionable than the "noise" from setting the transmitter on a lower level than recommended. There are several threads on this topic.

Singing peaks are typically more predictable, so setting the transmitter should be easy. I don't rely on the LEDs. I find it easier to set levels by looking at the receiver. No squaring.

Robert

[jason porter]

I have to wonder how much difference in audio quality between the SK5212/receiver and my G3 system. There’s certainly a big difference in cost.

I doubt that you would hear a big difference over a PA System but you would under a critical listening environment. I find the cheaper Sennheisers to be much "noisier"/hissy and they are less forgiving when you do hit the limiter than any of the accepted "pro" models from Sennheiser, Lectro, Zaxcom etc.

[studiomprd]

" how much difference in audio quality between the SK5212/receiver and my G3 system. "

there are excellent reasons the shows spend the big $$

the rule applies

Generally speaking, you get what you pay for.

[engaudio]

Just a note about the "key test", it does exist in the doc world and is called "talent gets xyz out of supermarket bag with no warning".

Had it several times over the last few days and sounded, well, ok with lectro um400a tx.

Thought I'd mention it.

Grant.