pvanstry Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 Was with a friend today who uses a Cantar and i noticed something that i really liked. On the Cantar the name of the audio files have nothing to do with the Scene, Shot or Take ID. So if he wants to have multiple Files with the same scene, shot and take, he can. Also to modify Scene, Shot and Take, its really simple, Easy and quick. Is there something i am not getting on my 788 and the way i operate it? Looks like the Audio file name is linked with scene, shot and take info. Anybody??? Thanks Pascal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 Was with a friend today who uses a Cantar and i noticed something that i really liked. On the Cantar the name of the audio files have nothing to do with the Scene, Shot or Take ID. So if he wants to have multiple Files with the same scene, shot and take, he can. Also to modify Scene, Shot and Take, its really simple, Easy and quick. Is there something i am not getting on my 788 and the way i operate it? Looks like the Audio file name is linked with scene, shot and take info. Anybody??? Thanks Pascal Zaxcom's original file naming system is similar to Cantar - unique filenames per file. Sound Devices filenames have always been linked to Scene and Take. Many, many pages of threads about this topic. Some people enjoy unique file names, some people insist on Scene/Take Filenames. AFAIK, only Zaxcom allows a combination of both with Nomad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margus Jukkum Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 The Cantar doesn't do long file names so sometimes it is easier to work with the 788 to satisfy post metadata requests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvanstry Posted November 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 What I find really complicated is to modify the Scene, Shot or Take info when shooting. It hard to keep up with script who don't always tell you what's next. Once things are recorded and you need to go back and change things, it's a nightmare. I saw my friend doing it today an it was SO MUCH EASIER AND FASTER. Sound Device, please give us the option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 CL wifi and iPod touch I can change it as I'm rolling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Foy Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 Also easily changed after using Wave Agent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 What I find really complicated is to modify the Scene, Shot or Take info when shooting. It hard to keep up with script who don't always tell you what's next. Once things are recorded and you need to go back and change things, it's a nightmare. Never a problem. Several times on my last shoot the other day, a scene got changed right after I started rolling on the 788. To change scene & take name while in record, hit the HDD button (lower left), highlight the take in progress, then scroll the options down to "rename." Now, you can rename it to whatever you want. The moment you hit the button, the name will change -- both filename and scene & take. To back out once it's changed, hit the * button. Piece of cake. If you're nervous about it, you can always wait until after hitting stop. It is a little easier to do it with CL-WiFi and the iPad or iPhone app. Either way can work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 Never a problem. Several times on my last shoot the other day, a scene got changed right after I started rolling on the 788. I will add that it is fairly simple with the Deva to change the Scene and Take info while in record from the touchscreen, touch the "back" arrow, enter new scene and/or take from onscreen keyboard, touch Enter. This topic, however, is far from resolved since it continues to touch on the individual opinions about the file NAME and whether the file name should be a unique filename or scene and take. As a long time Deva user I am still firmly in the camp that Scene and Take should be in the metadata and NOT the filename. The other issue which I have brought up before is the inherent difficulty on many jobs just coming up with meaningful Scene and Take info, regardless of where it gets entered. Often in post, camera shots in the absence of any meaningful scene and take info, are broken down based on content, named or re-named with editorial metadata, logged with timecode, etc. If there is proper timecode on the tracks, why is Scene and Take info so important? The scene and take info that we might desperately be trying to enter and get right based on some name or number that some script or non-script person is giving us, seems to be somewhat futile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvanstry Posted November 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 Even if i am loving my 788 a lot, i find that having individual filename and relegating Scene, Shot and Take info to Metadata is preferable. It makes for quick and safe info change on the fly. Also why only Scene and Take info and no info on Shot? Over here everything is related to the 3 infos not just Scene and take. It feels like it is complicating things a lot. Please SD, look into this. I believe that giving us the option of having either individual filename or Scene,Shot and Take related filename is overdue. Please add Shot in the system info also. Best would be a simple and quick shortcut to edit Scene, Shot and Take metadata like a simple press that would take you to the current file and have all three option in there with +/- fields. That way i can edit the metadata and have temporaryly two files with the same metadata info ( modify the first and then get to the other ) without duplicating.... Please. Pascal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Holesome Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 What is preventing you from calling your "Scene" something like FILE or any word you choose? If you never change it every recording will be increased numerically ie; FILE01, FILE02... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark LeBlanc Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 I name my files the scene/take number. Use CLWifi and keyboard with shortcuts. Never had a problem and post usually find it easy to track audio files down. Even when I am not near the village I verbal slate with take info and can change after the roll if needed. If you wish, you can just set the 788 to do sequential numbering then change meta data. I've noticed lately how sloppy the 2nd AC's have become with properly labeling the slate with the correct scene and take info. I work with a Scripty who I showed how to navigate to take list on the CLWIFI and double checks the camera reports with my listings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johngooch Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 What is preventing you from calling your "Scene" something like FILE or any word you choose? If you never change it every recording will be increased numerically ie; FILE01, FILE02... With the Cantar/Zax/Sonosax method there is room in the metadata for a unique file name AND scene and take info. The SD/Fostex (remember them? ) method creates the file name by copying it from the scene and take data. If i just go ahead and create a scene file01, file02 etc the scene/take metadata will be useless. I'd like a choice. There are workflows that will not accept unique file names that do not mirror the scene and take metadata and there are workflows that can. i see advantages in both systems- However, working on a episodic where at the end of the season i will have duplicated my scene names 12 times over, i would prefer the unique file name. OF course- this can all be the domain of a assistant editors.... But that is an argument for a different day. For now, we are all somewhat slaves to the metadata. I prefer to get it right the first time because that is the only way my digital report is going to anywhere close to accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 What is preventing you from calling your "Scene" something like FILE or any word you choose? If you never change it every recording will be increased numerically ie; FILE01, FILE02... I think that Sound Devices has the option of putting Scene and Take info in metadata if you want (I may be wrong) and Zaxcom now provides putting Scene and Take as the filename as an option. Using the above naming scheme on SD: FILE01, FILE02, etc., mimics exactly what the Deva has done all these years with a sequential SEG (segment) number every time you go into record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark LeBlanc Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 John, do you use the folder structure on the 788? I worked Episodic and used Ep# / Roll# / structure so at the end of the show you had a folder with every episode with roll numbers and scene numbers that were the same each episode but never had an issue with them getting crossed up.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 Duplicate file names have never been an issue for me. As noted above, each day or "roll" goes into its own folder, so duplicates aren't created. Assistant Editors keep episodes separate, so there's no issue there either. All machines take a moment to edit. I use 788T and routinely change scene/metadata as the information changes last second. I don't use a keyboard or CLWiFi. Just the front buttons. It takes just a few seconds. I think all methods on all machines are just fine. Somehow they managed to get it all sorted with hand-written notes and 1/4" tape, so really I don't see that any of this deserves to distract us from our main task of turning in good production tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 I think all methods on all machines are just fine. Somehow they managed to get it all sorted with hand-written notes and 1/4" tape, so really I don't see that any of this deserves to distract us from our main task of turning in good production tracks. +1, thumbs up! Thank you, Robert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 I too feel that one of the few things I don't like about my SD recorders is the filename=metadata name thing. I often work alone doco style, and if the situation is complex with changes of heart after rolling on what to call shots (or there is no scripty and an AC and I are making it all up ourselves) then I still like to use non-repeating segment numbers with a report that correlates them to scene/take. I generally do not have any time for renaming--just getting a report together and getting the data downloaded properly, as well as possibly dealing w/ MP3 versions is about what I can manage. I understand the extra effort needed for episodics--all those files, but when the machine is on a cart (possibly with a keyboard attached) so much more is possible in that way. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomboom Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 Worked with both Deva and 788 and in the end it's more like said above: Time Code. In post, they lock everything using TC; names and notes are icing on the cake to redistribute files according to sets, etc... their workflow... and sometimes I heard they don't even open the CSV files so... but it's the productions I've been on so far; not much experience compared to folks here who use cart every day of work. I still most do bag work. With the Deva I used to name files by scene-take so not much different than with my 788 now. I like to ''duplicate'' what's on the slate so they get a logical reference in post, and both systems have been easy to use (while recording or not). I use CL-Wifi and it's a breeze to add metadata; my iPhone along with a Bluetooth Logitech keyboard and I'm flying. I liked the touchscreen of the Deva (used a stylus) and I feel right at home with my iPhone/CL-Wifi (even in the bag) ; similar workflow so pick your flavor. Post has to adapt too; it's just an habit to grab with each project (or each different soundman's recorder) and in the end it's not like there was 200 kinds of naming schemes around to learn... but I know they got pressure too and they like to feel comfortable with workflow from the start so if you're the new guy comin' up with brand ''B'' and the last 2 or 3 sound guys before you have been using brand ''A'' with them, it sometimes shakes the foundations at post. I talk to them before shooting to sort a few things out and try later to simplify as much as I can for them according to the workflow we've set together without compromising my work. Not that much of a big deal in fact; people are usually kind. Maybe I've been lucky so far... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 I too feel that one of the few things I don't like about my SD recorders is the filename=metadata name thing. I often work alone doco style, and if the situation is complex with changes of heart after rolling on what to call shots (or there is no scripty and an AC and I are making it all up ourselves) then I still like to use non-repeating segment numbers with a report that correlates them to scene/take. I generally do not have any time for renaming--just getting a report together and getting the data downloaded properly, as well as possibly dealing w/ MP3 versions is about what I can manage. I understand the extra effort needed for episodics--all those files, but when the machine is on a cart (possibly with a keyboard attached) so much more is possible in that way. philp Then don't use the function. For my back-up SD machine I call the file "Roll001" and note the 'T' number in the report. In that sense it's no different than using Deva numbering and electing to not enter metadata. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvanstry Posted November 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 I guess what i did not tell people here is that i am trying not to do a paper report but only the inboard report. Jeff: Unfortunatly SD does not give you a way to separate Filename and Metadata, they are linked. For instance if you name your files Audio_001 ( for Take 001 ), if you record 4 files ( 001,002,003 and 004 ) and you would like to make file 004 into scene 2, then editing metadata for the Scene tag will bring you automatically to the filename portion Audio ( since _001 is the space reserved here for the Take tag ). At that point your file 004 will be called Audio2_004. What i would really like is the option to simply edit the metadata without affecting the filename, because it is an easy way for me to make sure that i ID the right files into to right Scenes, Shot and Take info. It would be so much more efficient. SD could also give you a menu item that would either link or unlink FIlename and Metadata. Again, we can make do with the way it is right now but why not make it more versatile and leave the decision into the hands of the Operator, who as to be able to say yes in the field to so many demands in so little time. That would let the operator decide how he wants to work and make for a very adaptable machine. My two cents. Pascal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Anderson Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 I like having the files named for the Scene/Takes so I can look back on the list and check how many takes of each shot we have. There are times when if there is a discrepancy between the script supervisor's notes and my own over how many takes of a certain shot were done, I can "check the machine" easily and quickly. The machine doesn't lie - unless I forgot to hit record... Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 As long as you can/want to do clean paper (or tablet) reports, file names and metadata don't matter so much. You CAN have the machine just count up from 001 to 999 and note the file number on the report together with scene/take/notes. Trouble begins when the only report is the one generated from recorder's metadata. The good thing about the file name = scene/take is that if metadata get lost in the post production process you still have that info in the file name. Somehow most FCP editors manage to f*ck with metadata AND file names. What is preventing you from calling your "Scene" something like FILE or any word you choose? If you never change it every recording will be increased numerically ie; FILE01, FILE02... When, in order to have unique file names on a 788, you call your "Scene" FILE or TITLE or whatever, you can't enter the real scene metadata. You'll have to note scene and take info on a paper report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johngooch Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 John, do you use the folder structure on the 788? I worked Episodic and used Ep# / Roll# / structure so at the end of the show you had a folder with every episode with roll numbers and scene numbers that were the same each episode but never had an issue with them getting crossed up.. Yes, 788t folder structure works well. I am putting my vote in to have a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomboom Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Having choice is always good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Nault Posted November 25, 2012 Report Share Posted November 25, 2012 Even if i am loving my 788 a lot, i find that having individual filename and relegating Scene, Shot and Take info to Metadata is preferable. It makes for quick and safe info change on the fly. Also why only Scene and Take info and no info on Shot? Over here everything is related to the 3 infos not just Scene and take. It feels like it is complicating things a lot. Please SD, look into this. I believe that giving us the option of having either individual filename or Scene,Shot and Take related filename is overdue. Please add Shot in the system info also. Best would be a simple and quick shortcut to edit Scene, Shot and Take metadata like a simple press that would take you to the current file and have all three option in there with +/- fields. That way i can edit the metadata and have temporaryly two files with the same metadata info ( modify the first and then get to the other ) without duplicating.... Please. Pascal I usually put some shot information/or description in the 'notes field' via the CL-WIfi app. R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.