First day without a back-up recorder!

[RPSharman]

So I bought a 442 over the weekend and have moved my 744T into a car/bag rig.

Flying solo with the 788T.

The muscle memory is the funniest thing. Reaching to press a button which isn't there.

Robert

[Whit Norris]

That's funny Robert I know the feeling when I have change carts or recorder set ups and remote rolls. It is great having a car/bag rig built and ready!

Whit

[traut]

No backup?

Eek!

[Marc Wielage]

Jeff convinced me after several years that 1) the camera has no backup, and 2) if you're running a hard drive and a mirrored CF card, then you already have a backup. The chances of the whole thing failing are very small (albeit possible).

I held onto my old Fostex PD4 DAT deck for five years, even carrying it around in the truck after I got a Deva and later a 788, but finally decided to lighten my load and just trust the machine. Have done OK so far! (Knock on wood.)

[old school]

The "back up" sits in the van until I need it. Also my mix is on the Alexa these days. You'll get use to it RS, trust me.

CrewC

[mikefilosa]

I remember an incident described by a very credentialed Oscar winner - his backup machilne caused a near fatal electrical issue that took down his whole cart for awhile...... absolutely more trouble than it was worth, absolutely.

For those here not familiar with the day and age, the "backup" recorder / huge uncompensated-for investment was SOLEY a product of the long-gone DAT era.

MF

[jason porter]

I recently experienced 2 corrupt files on 2 different CF cards ( from 788 ). Thankfully, the harddrive files were fine.

[Marc Wielage]

I forgot the third thing Jeff reminded me: 3) almost nobody ever used two Nagras in the 1970s and 1980s. Very hard to argue with that.

I always try to send a perfectly-usable mono mix to the camera (assuming digital), so in the event of nuclear attack, I figure that's a reasonable backup.

[Jeff Wexler]

Oh, the BACKUP topic is with us again. I'm not going to make a lot of comment at this point but since I have given this a whole lot of thought over the years I always come up with the same question when analyzing this: when we say we are running a "backup", what is it exactly we are trying to accomplish? What sort of event are we trying to protect ourselves and our jobs from?

Run all the potential scenarios for every kind of failure on the set, come up with what you would do if such a failure should occur, then determine if running a 2nd recorder in parallel on the cart is the best/easiest way to deal with these (potential) failures. For me, running just the one Deva recorder has been completely satisfactory for me. For others, you should do whatever helps you feel secure.

[Joshua Anderson]

I am very backup/redundant heavy. Feels good to say it. 

I run 2 recorders (both 788s with SSD drives - yes, I wanted SSD for fear of computer death). 

Each recorder backs up itself by putting data onto 3 different forms of media (internal drive, external drive, and a CF card). 

Each recorded backs up the other recorder by getting the exact same audio tracks (2-8 tracks each). 

I front end the recorders with an analog mixer so the mixer isn't dependent on the recorder. 

It's an absurd amount of redundancy. But it makes me feel comfortable that there is never a question about the media - too many other things to worry about on this show. 

I cycle through external drives so during the course of the season, I have back ups (a drive for each recorder) in case Post needs them. But, yes, it's a lot of backup, cause Post makes their own copies too. But bytes are cheap and I order simple/cheap external drive enclosure kits. 

I do understand the sentiment that the camera (recorder) doesn't have a back up and the crew will do another take if somethings amiss, but the one thing I keep in mind is: 

If we live by the "another take" methodology and shoot take after take because every department gets another chance at (mechanical) failure, where do we draw the line so the production completes the day? 

As much as mechanical failure shouldn't be our fault, I like to not worry about it and save my requests for other "sound issues". I only get so much capital. 

So yes, technically, I'm a back-up overkill junkie but it makes me happy. 

Josh

[jason porter]

The problem that I see with the "other departments don't have a backup" argument is this- they don't normally own the gear that fails, but we do. So the appearance is that a failure is our fault.

[Jeff Wexler]

The problem that I see with the "other departments don't have a backup" argument is this- they don't normally own the gear that fails, but we do. So the appearance is that a failure is our fault.

Again, what sort of "failure" are we trying to protect ourselves? I don't think ownership should figure into it at all. Except in the case where there is a piece of gear being used, by ANY department in any capacity, that is just not functioning properly, I think the focus is always on the operator and the department. Failures from the camera department are traditionally tolerated better by production (and the other departments) but I don't think it should be an issue of ownership or where the equipment has been rented from. I do know that if I show up for a job with equipment that is prone to failure and the shoot has to endure these failures, the production is not likely to hire me again or rent the sound equipment from the same rental house (me).

[afewmoreyears]

After a career of always having recorded to another recorder....a back up, I am on a whole new cart, with all new gear... and no back up.... Maybe I am going with the math... In all those years, I never needed the back up.... lucky? maybe... but it is what it is... I figure recording to 3 media sources... I am most likely safe... if not... I have been bitten by the math bug...

[dfisk]

In my product specialist days I have definitely seen times when a backup machine saved the day, and this is in the HD audio recorder world. Usually the backup was on the cart, or at least in a nearby truck. Wasn't often, but I did see recorder failures that had there been no backup machine within arm's reach, things would have gotten ugly.

[Jeff Wexler]

Having a second recorder to "backup" a catastrophic failure of the main recorder is a MUST as far as I'm concerned. This backup, however, will stay in a case on the truck (unless, of course, there is this failure where it will be needed).

[John Blankenship]

To clarify: Having backup gear readily available is a whole other subject from this one, and something I'm convinced everyone should prepare for. Like many here, I typically have enough gear standing by that I could still handle the gig no matter what failed. I would venture to guess that most who've been around a while could make the same statement.

As far as running a backup recording, I think that's totally a "personal comfort level" thing. I'm in the "it's better to have a backup and not need it than to need a backup and not have it" camp, but that's only when I'm working on a cart and it doesn't pose a hassle to have one.

When it's any trouble to do so, such as insert car, or bag, work, I don't run a backup. On the cart, however, I run a two track backup. It's just the matter of pressing another button and, truth be told, didn't we all get into this madness because we liked twisting knobs and pressing buttons?

Over the years I've had a couple of situations where a backup recording was a hero.

In my experience during a lifetime of dealing with electronics of almost every vintage and almost every degree of dependability, even with the best of equipment, Mr. Murphy lurks nearby. Granted, when running top-notch gear, properly installed and properly maintained, he's kept mostly at bay. However, Murphy is always vigilant for that single instance when he can coax one of the tens of thousands of internal components present in modern electronics, to commit hara-kiri.

Mind you, I readily accept the position that if a situation occurs, you call for another take, whip out the backup, and the earth won't quit spinning on its axis. I have zero argument with anyone who chooses not to run a backup on their cart. It's not a right or wrong situation -- it's a personal comfort level thing.

It gives me comfort, and... well... I like that.

[Jeff Wexler]

+1 for JB --- well said!

[studiomprd]

another patronizing vote for what JB said!

"Wasn't often, but I did see recorder failures that had there been no backup machine within arm's reach, things would have gotten ugly "

I've always had that sort of backup (reasonably close), but as for simultaneous dual recorders, well 'dat was for DAT...

Thus, I would argue that my first day without a back-up recorder (running) was back in the late 70's!

Edited January 9, 2013 by studiomprd

[John Blankenship]

another patronizing vote for what JB said!

"Wasn't often, but I did see recorder failures that had there been no backup machine within arm's reach, things would have gotten ugly "

I've always had that sort of backup (reasonably close), but as for simultaneous dual recorders, well 'dat was for DAT...

Thus, I would argue that my first day without a back-up recorder (running) was back in the late 70's!

I didn't take Jeff's +1 as being at all patronizing, therefore your statement of "another..." is, as of this writing, incorrect. You may be alone on this.

Your statement, "I would argue that..." is interesting. One wonders who you're arguing with since you were there at the time. Are you next going to insist that neither one of you has a split personality?

I just thought frequent pedantry deserved a (good natured) return in kind.

Happy new year!

[studiomprd]

" One wonders who you're arguing with "

myself, usually...

trouble is I usually lose..

even when I win

[stacysound]

No backup. That's what the "play" button is for...

[Marc Wielage]

The problem that I see with the "other departments don't have a backup" argument is this- they don't normally own the gear that fails, but we do. So the appearance is that a failure is our fault.

I have worked several Red Epic jobs recently where the DP was an owner/operator, and brought along two camera bodies. So he did, in fact, have a backup in case of total equipment failure.

But they have no backup in case the SSD or card on which they're recording fails.

[Freeheel]

I figured that Peter Jackson procured 48 Red Epics for shooting the Hobbit so that they could have 3D A cam, 3D B cam, 4 more for A and B cam on second unit...

and 40 Epics as backups.

[Mark Andrews]

In my limited experience I have never rolled two recorders, unless it was because we needed more channels that one recorder provided. I do like to keep backup kit with me just in case of catastrophic failure, but more and more i'm learning to trust my kit and keep it light. The majority of other sound recordists in my market do not carry backup recorders around with them at all.

~Mark.

[mikefilosa]

and 40 Epics as backups.

When 30 aren't enough !!

I did an independent last year on two Epics - Camera A had a sudden fatal heart attack on the first shot!

Camera B became "A" while the replacement was procured, and for the duration of the show.

MF