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Small Kit Advice


Brett Sorensen

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All that said, if you were buying a small kit for more talking head interviews etc, you can do well. Either a mixer feeding a camera, or outputting to a recorder for 5D jobs (5D jobs don't require TC in 99% of the cases). One day on those will pay what you get for a few days on an indie film.

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Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think you are seeing the big picture. I understand your predicament, you are actually me a few years ago. I did my initial trial by fire in NYC and then moved to Hawaii, effectively starting from square one. I was going all around town looking to 2nd or 3rd for local mixers - and in my market, the work simply didn't exist or the work that did exist was going to established, experienced guys who already had relationships with the mixers and were already in the union. At that point, I had to decide to find another line of work or scrap it out on my own and start mixing. In effect, I diluted the market by being one more guy fighting for a job and being THAT guy that did it for cheaper. At first, sure, it was jobs that no one else wanted or paid too little to be considered a real job, but soon after, I started getting bigger gigs and was actually taking work that would have been done by more senior mixers.

First off, recognize that the jobs you get starting out don't care / don't warrant 400/411 packages. Don't succumb to the notion that it is the gear that will get you the work. I fought for years with Senn G2 and whatever it was that came before G2 and shitty Sony gear that had RF hits all over the place. I got repeat hires because of my performance and the reputation that I SLOWLY built from word of mouth. When I finally got enough credibility to be a day player replacement for other mixers, I always showed my best game face to the client and respected the fact that the referring mixer OWNED that relationship, it was not mine to capitalize on. My income supported the gear that I was using. The production got at least what they paid for, often times more, but not because I skimped on gear rental rates by giving away 788T and Lectro gear for peanuts.

I don't think that any of us can imagine that we can convince you to stop your plans or get out of the biz just because we say so. What we are trying to do, is to help you - charge a fair rate, to make your business plan, or lack thereof, actually make sense, and of course the more self-serving goal of keeping this industry whole, healthy, and professional. You are probably going to go into debt, I'm guessing, by running up your credit card or from a family member, so they don't need to see a business plan. Try to take the approach, "what if I were taking a small business loan from a bank?" How can you present a business plan that shows you will reach profitability in a reasonable amount of time? Otherwise, they would not have approved such a loan in the first place.

The breakdown... $200 is more or less $25/hr. If you consider that a fair rate for an 8 hour gig, then production should pay for gear also or provide a package, otherwise your effectively donating it and more or less co-producing their project. Most of use would consider $25/hr substandard and if your an able body, you should be able to make equal to that, slightly less, slightly more, in some other industry, but probably with a lot more hours, stability, health insurance, and other benefits. Typical rates would be from $30 to $50/hr depending on your experience and geography. Most production days, because of sunrise / sunset usually try to maximize their daily efficiency and ask for 10, sometimes 12 hour days. This is usually shown on a payroll system as 8 hours + OT. So that would be $275/10 or $350/12. So right off the bat, you can already give yourself a raise of $75 to $150 depending on how long they are going to go. If you buy a $10K kit, charge $200 per day for it. If you buy a $2K kit, charge $40 per day for it, etc... These are your baselines, if you have to go below it, ask yourself why. Is it a local producer that is going to give you more work (potentially)? Invoice the full rate and then show a discount, a courtesy, for this one time. Is it a gig that lasts 2 weeks? Sure, a day off of a week as a discount is certainly warranted. Is the gig going to last 3 months? Well a whole 'nother level of negotiation is warranted in that case too. If it is an out of town visiting production that your not going to see again... let me tell you, they are used to paying industry rates. Some jack-a-hole producer is thinking that he can get a local bumpkin to bend for $200 a day, and he is going to laugh at his friends that he was able to. Their other option is paying $700 to $900 per day for the LA guy, plus airfare, plus per diem and housing. Do yourself (and us) a favor and don't act unprofessional in these instances. You are worth it, even with your lack of experience. If you don't have Lectros when this job comes up, go out and rent. If you don't have a local rental house, contact one of the metro shops, there is always a way and sometimes rental makes more sense than ownership. Even if you don't work with one, you should make good relationships with the local mixers. If you have good communication with them, they will respect you, perhaps even help out when they can (maybe with gear), and eventually, throw you some work.

Once you feel you have experience under your belt, raise your rates up to industry standard, which by my estimation, would be $35 to $40 per hour for 8 plus 1.5x OT after. How long would it take to get up to that? Maybe give yourself a $5 raise per year. The fact is, that the majority of the people on this user board have more experience than you, in most cases, a lot more. What we consider a minimal package now is not necessarily what we started out with. Take Jeff, Crew, Mike, and some of the other guys here, they worked before electricity and had to record on those wax cylinders thingees on a hand crank.

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Once again, I understand. And the commercial/corporate/5D gigs is kind of what I was thinking, as they have the budget - in my experience.

If I was able to just work for a mixer or two as a boom or utility. I would absolutely be doing that. My previous connections have since uprooted/switched to broadcast/etc. This wasn't supposed to be a 'whoa is me' by any means. But I also wasn't trying to offend anyone by putting together a kit. More so, it's a situation where I have to do something. Or pick a different line of work (which I'm not willing to do).

As long as people can go out and buy DSLR for reasonable price, there will always be those low budget shoots. They aren't going to stop being made because they fall under the 'professional' radar. And they shouldn't. It's where people get their chops. You wouldn't want to pay a full rate to someone with no experience, but you also don't want to see that person work 14 hours for free. I'm very careful about picking up these low budget projects, as many of them tend to be 'producers' who took time off work to make a movie with their friends. Which I agree, is absolutely ridiculous.

You're right, these types of gigs won't cover that 10k. And my experience far out ways that of these productions. But owning the gear would give me something to market, and better grounds to negotiate with bigger productions. Or at least that was a thought.

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Tom - as always, very helpful. I am going about this more professionally than I am apparently leading on. The debt, should I decide to take it - will be by way of business plan/bank loan.

These are all numbers I am aware of. I assure you I charge those rates when applicable, and only work for the 'right' small budgets. Its just a lot of what you said about it just not existing.

I did see that post. Thanks. Unfortunately I'm in the beginning stages of planning still. And now, second guessing a lot of things.

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I strongly suggest the kit above... remember that a 302 can also be used as a 5 channel input device, though at the cost of the tape out.

maybe add a pair of Lectro LM/UCR100 sets.. or used 200 series? OR.. G2s with Oscar Sound tech mics... I like the Sanken style ones, some other folks like the Tram style ones.

that would be under $6K.

you'd keep using that as an ENG bag..

If you think you might want something to scale to a cart, then Nomad or SD664 come into play.. both have their merits.

664 has timecode clock ready to go not all levels of Nomad do.

The advantage to Lectros will be felt from higher end clients, but with a better than stock kit mike G3s and G2s will get a lot of jobs done fine. and they have a street price of around $700 for a tx/rx set with an OST mic

You can use the G3s as an ifb in the future for your boom op, also, instead of a talkback cable.

I started with a used Wendt X4, and 2 g2 sets and a boom with a sennheiser k3u me 60 setup, then an AT 4073

used a breakaway cable for getting sound to cameras.

after a couple years I started building a cart.

I am far below the skill and toolkit level of many of this sites posters, but I can now mix and record a lot of commercial and indie projects.

I selected a Zaxcom Fusion as the core of my kit, as I liked a lot of its features, and it could do both bag double system and cart double system.

I have added lectros to my kit, as have had money to afford them, and jobs on which to collect rental.

Many folks on this site have well over $100K in their kit, and even they have wish lists for gear they would buy if they could.

the cheapest industrial I ever had (as distinguished from non commercial projects for and with friends), paid $375labor and $50 for the first version of kit as a rental.

I suggest that every job you are paid for, remember you are running 2 businesses:

The loan out compnay for your labor, and the rental company for your gear. If you don't keep the money seperated, you will have tax problems, and also find it difficult to maintain and upgrade your equipment.

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Every Nomad has TC in it. The Lite doesn't have ZaxNet, but it absolutely is a TC recorder with BNC TC jacks for in and out.

If you want to buy for the future, I would look at a Nomad/664 and then see what you have left. Used Lectros are a good deal, even the older models (especially the 200 series). There are often used boom poles posted here or in the used section of "usual suspects" sites. There are a lot of threads here about "best bang for you buck..." on shotgun mics as well as things like how to power your bag. The older Comtek 72 series still work quite well. You get what you pay for (fixed freq is the big one), but you can sometimes find somebody selling a whole set for a very attractive price. Comteks are something that can add up to a nice rental on some jobs.

I wouldn't even consider a TC slate at this level. It's $1,300 that doesn't help you record better sound or give you another channel of wireless. When negotiating with a film, you can suggest they get one bundled in with the camera rental, or pay to rent one if POST wants it. Same argument for sync boxes. You can make a good rental off them (assuming production will pay), but if you are trying to survive with tough negotiators, then save your $ for things that make your sound better. I would spend the $50-$100 for a standard slate. Maybe even one of the well built mini slates that are about $35.

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Comteks are something that can add up to a nice rental on some jobs.

Oddly enough I find I often have to fight productions on the rental of an extra wireless talent mic, or getting a utility guy for the sound crew (anything that will actually help get better sound or make our job easier), but as soon as the producers wife/ girlfriend or other associate producers with friends and family show up suddenly there is the budget to rent 3,4,5.... infinity extra Comteks. Welcome to the world of weirdness my friend!

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" I got paid $200 "

you are arguing my point!

" to help you - charge a fair rate "

and a fair rate for a less experienced beginner is less than the fair rate for someone with experience.

--and labor rates (hourly, or even daily) are separate from kit rates, which are rental...

" $200 is more or less $25/hr. If you consider that a fair rate for an 8 hour gig, then production should pay for gear also or provide a package, otherwise your effectively donating it and more or less co-producing their project. Most of use would consider $25/hr substandard "

$200/10 is $18.18/hr. If you consider that a fair rate for a10 hour gig, then production should also pay for gear or provide a package, otherwise your effectively donating it and more or less co-producing their project, that is investing in it Most of use would consider $25/hr substandard, but as a beginner, and in your market, and for a lo/no budget OMB project, and with a modest rental if you supply equipment, it isn't too outrageous. note that $200/12 is about $14/hr, and it is even worse if it is $200 flat!

On the equipment rental, part, keep in mind that while the lo/no $ crowd want all the whistles and bells, which they cannot afford, they typically do not differentiate " Most producers don't know one model from the other." between a $300 Zoom (toy) recorder and a SD (real, professional) recorder, so sometimes you may have better equipment than the rates you can get for it seem to indicate, but that goes with the territory, sometimes we eat a bit of it on our rental, if the gig is worth it to us.

" You are worth it, even with your lack of experience. "

this is I believe, an arguable issue, and there are a lot of factors, including competition that figure into what rate you can or should actually get...

" I would spend the $50-$100 for a standard slate "

I would not spend the $50-$100 for a standard slate

" Don't succumb to the notion that it is the gear that will get you the work. "

it isn't about the clubs, it is about the golfer aka <tiger>

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Once again, thanks to everyone for the lengthy responses. It truly is pretty refreshing to get all the advice, despite most of you not agreeing with my logic.

Maybe I'm going about it the wrong way (This has gotten off topic fast).

All of you have that young boom or utility you trust that you throw the gigs you won't take (even though you still kill him on rental). I'm that guy.

Now picture telling that guy that you withdrew from the union, and sold your gear.

What does that guy do?

I suspect that many of you, if not most. Came up in exact fashion that you are trying to discourage me from.

All that being said, I'm more unsure than ever on what I should be doing.

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" Now picture telling that guy that you withdrew from the union, and sold your gear."

aka retired...

he sold his gear to others, without giving you a shot, or a deal, like long term installment payment ?

While I am ardent about <tiger>, I'm also a gear geek (I'm so torn), so I'd look for some good used gear... I'm guessing it is hard to get rental gear on short notice where you are...

but your lo/no clients would be just as satisfied if you do a respectable job consistently, even if you are using a Shure FP-33, an AT mic and one of the TASCAM or Marantz recorders, with a couple of Sennheiser Evolution series wireless, at a fair rate (I'd shoot for $200/10 labor, and $150 for small package to begin, but you'll find that some calls, like from out of town folks coming in could easily go higher than that.

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" tell someone how much you're worth "

and the POV factor: how much am I worth to me vs. how much am I worth to them.

I know that we may know that we are worth more, but a lot of these folks decide (right or wrong) on a price, and that is their principle hiring criteria, So when they decide, wrong as it seems to us, to pay $100/day for sound, all they want to do is talk to the $100/day people.

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Oh, by the way, did you catch the link I posted for this kit for sale? It is a steal and a great starter kit. You can even say that you have "Lectros". Most producers don't know one model from the other.

That's a great deal.. that 302 looks brand-spanking-new! and the Lectro receivers have an appealing vintage look.. better than their newer stuff but that's just an opinion..

didn't wanna hijack the thread..

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  • 4 months later...

As someone in a similar position to the original poster, I have to say this was a great and interesting thread. 

 

Bsorensen - what did you go for in the end?

 

I put together a minimal ENG kit back in December - might be interesting to compare notes?

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I would suggest getting a sound mentor. Someone who is actually doing what you want to do. If you are going to succeed as a sound professional for the long haul and do good for your industry you need to take things slow and get guidance that goes beyond forum q&a. It's been my experience that technical skills, pricing strategy and solid business relationships take years to develop.

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I would suggest getting a sound mentor. Someone who is actually doing what you want to do. If you are going to succeed as a sound professional for the long haul and do good for your industry you need to take things slow and get guidance that goes beyond forum q&a. It's been my experience that technical skills, pricing strategy and solid business relationships take years to develop.

+1

But I would (respectively) add that I consider it worthwhile to invest in a starter kit for doing smaller ENG/OMB shoots whilst also having one or more mentors to work with on bigger projects. 

 

I don't think you were saying otherwise, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway. O0

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