callou Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 The engineers at Complete Post/Technicolor explained to me that timecode alone will work with one camera. With multiple cameras, the risk is that the timecode phase will drift slightly -- at a sub-frame level -- so that it's not precisely lined up with the first line of video. You might compare this to two pieces of film that get 1 sprocket hole out of sync. They're almost in sync, but still out about 1/96th of a second (1 quarter of a frame), which is extremely noticeable. Only with genlock reference (i.e., video sync) will everything be in absolute sync. When timecode phase starts drifting a little tiny bit, what happens is that some timecode-reading gear gets "confused" and will flip over to the previous frame number or the following frame number. As a result, you get multiple cameras and sound that occasionally and unpredictably go out 1 frame, depending on where the drift leans. If there's absolutely precise video sync and timecode reference, this will never happened. I know of a very famous recent 3D horror film that did not use genlock and timecode reference, and it wasn't noticed until the 11th hour, when the film was conformed and checked. The slight sync error caused massive 3D issues, causing preview audiences to get sick. I believe five or six technicians working 20 hours a day for about 5 days straight had to be employed to make manual changes (at a six-figure expense) to fix the problem. If they had just used proper reference on all cameras, this would have saved them about $150,000 at the end. But that was a "picture problem," not sound per se. But for one-camera shoots, just timecode alone will work OK. I have some experience with the C300 and none with the C500 yet, but what I don't like is that the camera is teeny-tiny and there's no room to bolt anything on it. It's like a very big DSLR. I have no clue how stable it is with longterm timecode jamming; I've used it in both external and in jam modes, and I was told by post that sound was perfect all day. Many thanks for that clear explaination Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean ONeil Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Yes, Thanks Marc. Cheers, Sean O'Neil Brooklyn NYC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent R. Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 So, now I am interested in why Gertjan is claiming that it's necessary on the c300... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callou Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 by the way on small camera and DSLR ,i often use the camera mouting accesories given with the G3 system with a bit of velcro, works well , no complain so far from any cam op's.. Last shoot on 2 C300 i had an SB-T and a G3 or 2020 Rx on each one, no problems.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 by the way on small camera and DSLR ,i often use the camera mouting accesories given with the G3 system with a bit of velcro, works well , no complain so far from any cam op's.. Your guys must be nicer than the DPs I deal with! They all grouse and frown when I bring over my boxes to clamp onto their rigs. "Oh, great... now we have to figure out where to put this extra dead weight." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjGo Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 by the way on small camera and DSLR ,i often use the camera mouting accesories given with the G3 system with a bit of velcro, works well , no complain so far from any cam op's.. Last shoot on 2 C300 i had an SB-T and a G3 or 2020 Rx on each one, no problems.. That's clever.. i have some hotshoe-brackets lying around.. DP is a very friendly guy and knows what is needed on this shoot so he doesn't complain about extra weight on the camera.. he is also very aware of the physical restrictions of the C300-body mount-wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan chiles Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Hey Callou, I have been doing the same using velcro or even doublesided tape to stick my SR Rx onto the G2 Hotshoe plate.. its worked very well and is nice and light Look forward to hearing about these little Betso boxes from users in the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gertjan Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 I have done some timecode testing with the Sony F3 as well as with the Canon C300. I used my Ambient Masterclock/controller ACC 101, and a Ambient ACL202 lockit on the Camera. With the ACC101 controller you can see very small timecode offsets between the masterclock and the slave timecode. I found that WITHOUT connecting video sync both Cameras slaved perfectly, if left alone. But after switching on/off, changing speed or changing Battery etc. there was always a small offset in the timecode. Say half a frame back, or whatever. (Though always less than a frame). And off course, these offsets add up. When using WITH video Sync connected (the Camera genlocked to the Lockit), the camera stays perfectly sync, whatever I did with the Camera. As You don’t want to Eagle Eye the camera all day for Battery changes etc., I think Video Sync is a must for these Camera’s….. Gertjan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmgoodin Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Without Genlock Tri-Level sync from the external TC source the sync can vary plus or minus 1 frame on every shot. It could be right on or it could be off by 1 frame. Since without genlock, the sequence is: 1 Operator hits record button 2 Camera opens file and starts capturing video frame based on its own crystal 3 it Jams the TC Clock from the external TC input Since there is no direct relationship between the frame transition on the external TC source and the internal camera frame start, the External TC clock could be very close to the end of the frame when the Camera Grabs the TC number from what is essentially the previous frame by the time the recording starts.. This plus or minus 1 frame sync error can be pretty hard to see unless you are syncing 2 visual images or Trying to mix 2 seperatly synced audio sources. Since it can vary every time you hit the record button it can be very elusive. Now you see it, now you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 " the risk is that the timecode phase will drift slightly -- at a sub-frame level -- so that it's not precisely lined up with the first line of video. " While I can appreciate this for the dual camera 3D rigs, I have found in most cases for typical multiple camera editing in post, that the sub-frame accuracy is not actually an issue... OTOH, it (genlock) couldn't hurt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceSound Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Ok, so we've got: 1) Betso TCXS Transceivers - 2 for $575 2) Ambient TC-TRXA - 2 for $712 3) Betso SBOX-1 - 2 for $1290 4) Time Code Buddy - 2 for $1425 (sync) 5) Ambient ACN-TL - 2 for $1740 6) Ambient ACL 204 - 2 for $2320 (sync) Did I miss a wireless option? Which and why? Why not? The price discrepancies are pretty large, and I'm sure it's feature related, but which do we all think is the best bang for the buck (including prospective quality/reliability)? Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 I think the most affordable option is not wireless, simply going with jammable TCXO boxes like the Ambient Lockit or the Denecke SB-T (or the lower-priced options made by both companies). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Woodcock Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 I think the most affordable option is not wireless, simply going with jammable TCXO boxes like the Ambient Lockit or the Denecke SB-T (or the lower-priced options made by both companies). Wireless does not make the product any better but it makes life a lot easier, I suppose it comes down to budget like Marc said or how lazy you are. Timecode buddy for me has been great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martyg Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Has WC, does not have TriLevel. So was it decided we didn't need sync anymore? philp Possibly power consumption considerations, off the shelf genlockable integrated circuits squirting out tri level consume a lot of power, so the battery life might be 1/10th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Possibly power consumption considerations, off the shelf genlockable integrated circuits squirting out tri level consume a lot of power, so the battery life might be 1/10th Naaa, I get a minimum of 3-4 days out of an SB-T using three lithium AA's. $5 to run a box like this for 4 days is not a big deal to me, especially if the production is paying for it (which they should). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanross Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Just do what I do. Have a bunch of options. I own two SB3's, two ERX2TCD's, Lectro D4 (I can send a mix plus wireless timecode to camera) Betso Timecode display, blackbox wireless timecode and a Denecke Slate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomboom Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Just do what I do. Have a bunch of options. I own two SB3's, two ERX2TCD's, Lectro D4 (I can send a mix plus wireless timecode to camera) Betso Timecode display, blackbox wireless timecode and a Denecke Slate. Mmfff... you don't even have an ACL204 or a TimecodeBuddy ? What is that ? I'm really deceived Justan, I thought you'd be more prepared than that... :D :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanross Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Mmfff... you don't even have an ACL204 or a TimecodeBuddy ? What is that ? I'm really deceived Justan, I thought you'd be more prepared than that... :D :D I'm sorry to let you down Pierre :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomboom Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 A Merry NDF Christmas for you sir, haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 " which do we all think is the best bang for the buck " different strokes for different folks... you have choices, you have a decision to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmahaAudio Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Just do what I do. Have a bunch of options. I own two SB3's, two ERX2TCD's, Lectro D4 (I can send a mix plus wireless timecode to camera) Betso Timecode display, blackbox wireless timecode and a Denecke Slate. You're a freakin' time code god! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanross Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 You're a freakin' time code god! Lol! I just like to have lots of options. I have feeling now that I own the ERX'S I may not need all of those options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Wang Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 Old topic but i just saw this info with the Betso sbox 1 BETSO SBOX-1 is a really small, compact, self powered solution for reading/generating/jamming to any common frame rate including 0.5 (11.998, 12, 12.5,...) and 2 (48, 50, 60,...) multiples. so this box will does high frame rates as well, anyone any thoughts on this ? i recall two projects discussed here before which the audio recorder still using 23.98 or 24 for the HFR film, are we all going to need to update our recorder and lockit in a near future ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek H Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 Can I just say that I really like the design of this Betso TC box! Hope to hear reviews soon as to its stability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudioSheik Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 I gave a demo to a customer of mine and he wrote up a nice review here: Justin Vall's Review Also we have a nice sync box comparison chart here: Compare and Contrast Sync Boxes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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