stephensharrod Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 http://losangeles.cr...3452849709.html "Sound mixers get a bum deal. We have to invest over $10k to get decent gear and enough of it to be able to handle the demands of what production wants. We provide a valuable service that is even more important than your picture. Your film has dialogue, people want to hear it and hear it clearly. We try to do that for you despite poor locations, poor wardrobe choices, and sometimes, ridiculous shot composition. A camera crew is exactly that, a crew. Operator, 1st AC, 2nd AC. If there's no 2nd AC then there's damn sure a 1st. Sound mixers are apparently expected to do the job of two people and get paid peanuts for it. In the LA area, the absolute minimum for our services should be $350 per 12 hour day with $100 for a kit fee. Base minimum. Any asshole with a DSLR can call themselves a DP and show up on set and get paid decently because they have a camera. A 744t recorder is nearly twice the cost of a 5d markIII and a 788 is more so. On top of that, producers want at least 2 wireless, a shotgun mic with great rejection, and comteks so they can hear and complain. We help people want to watch your movie. A film with terrible sound and a gorgeous picture is still unwatchable, a film with mediocre picture and excellent sound will be watched in its entirety (provided the story is worth it). Don't insult production sound mixers or boom operators (two separate jobs, by the way) by wanting to pay $150 for a 12 hour day, subway for lunch, and no equipment fee. $350 +$100 kit fee is minimum. If we really really like you, we might do it for less if we're bored. But don't insult us by calling it a job." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Whoever wrote this is a neophyte, referencing the industry solely from the perspective of the low budget independent film world. It does a disservice to those who make their living as sound mixers. It should never be allowed to escape the confines of CraigsList, where it originated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Thomas Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 There was a bit of a discussion about this on the 'Freelance Sound Mixers' group on facebook and the guy who wrote it was aiming this solely at LB independent film producers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 $10k kinda pales in comparison to the cost of building even a modest mix stage. A single necessary plugin can cost over $3k And then you get peope doing actual broadcast mow's telling you they ave $9k for the entire audio post budget. That includes all the ADR foley, mixing, editing and deliverables. So, weeks of work. Just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 If someone thinks they can record decent narrative sound with a $10k investment in gear, then they're just as stupid as the producer trying to hire them. And as John wrote, they're doing a disservice to us all by posting this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Come one. I can get a Tascam DR-05 Portable Recorder for $100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Now for a serious question. What would a fair price be for a boom and mixer be, on a super low budget, self financed film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Woodcock Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 10k for a decent ENG kit not EFP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 10k for a decent ENG kit not EFP I meant hire someone on a day rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Woodcock Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I meant hire someone on a day rate. I was referring to the first post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 the absolute minimum for our services should be $350 per 12 hour day with $100 for a kit fee. Base minimum. This is a problem..... he can kiss my @$$ with his minimum wage statement and 12 hours. Way to screw everyone.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 If someone thinks they can record decent narrative sound with a $10k investment in gear, then they're just as stupid as the producer trying to hire them. And as John wrote, they're doing a disservice to us all by posting this. +11 $10k? really? Making investments into a freelance venture is a calculated risk. You can't blame low-balling producers and CL posters for bad calculations -- start small -- let your work speak for you, and remember: the biggest power we have is the ability to say no. If you don't like what they're offering, move on -- complaining about it publicly will only serve to alienate you from potential clients, regardless of their budgets. ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) " In the LA area, the absolute minimum for our services should be $350 per 12 hour day with $100 for a kit fee. Base minimum. " here we are with this same old fal-der-dah... the marketplace sets rates and in the case of this CL rant, we have someone purporting to be from one world (working production sound mixers with experience and equipment) preaching to a completely different world (CL), where folks with little experience, and "well it can do it" equipment are taking these gigs. At ~$10k worth of kit, the CL pant poster is probably somewhat new and possibly less experienced The bottom line is the pros don't want these gig, and frankly, shouldn't even be looking at them, since the folks who take these POS gigs at these CRAP rates are not taking work away from the working professionals who make their living doing production sound, and, frankly, these wanna-bee producers will not pay the rates "we" want them to...they simply won't!. get over it, deal with it, these are not jobs for "us folks", and yes, the folks who do take them will meet the expectations of the gig (a warm breathing body with some toys)... and yes, someday they may join "us" as working professionals with more appropriate gear, and charging more professional rates.! to rephrase: They can't -or won't- afford "experienced professionals, and we don't really want these gigs anyway! " If someone thinks they can record decent narrative sound with a $10k investment in gear, then they're just as stupid as the producer trying to hire them. " Well, not necessarily (IOW, it depends)...now we're back to <tiger> (and I'll bet Mr. Woods can play a fine round with even my shabby bag!) and way to many folks here are telling other folks here with Zoom recorders to charge $500 + rental... so it really isn't either the clubs, or the greens fees that control the score... Interesting that the very next post I read was Den Nic's asking about using a Zoom...followed bt discussions of toy recorders fro professional gigs! Edited December 9, 2012 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 There is a new thread/post from a newbie about interconnecting a PSC mixer and a Zoom.... do you think s/he should be demanding $500/10 plus rental ?? Well...I don't think so now, but maybe after a bunch of CL POS gigs..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Senator, in your rush to be the definitive word on the subject, you seem to have missed the point entirely. The point is that a CraigsList rant, being presented as "Whoever Wrote This Is Awesome" was posted into a professional forum as if we're supposed to think this is awesome for professionals. Not only did it propose indecent rates but it also promoted an adversarial approach to other departments. While there are issues to be sorted out where other disciplines are concerned, approaching them with a chip on one's shoulder is unprofessional. I'm thinking that, perhaps, in a professional forum, we should promote and support professional standards and behavior. Thus, my comments. Leave the CraigsList rates and behavior on CraigsList. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 " seem to have missed the point entirely. " sorry if it seemed that way, I certainly did not think that that CL post was worthwhile at all... " Leave the CraigsList rates and behavior on CraigsList. " exactly: Leave the CraigsList rates and behavior on CraigsList; leave the CL crowd (producers and crew) on CL... CL is no place for professionals to be looking for professional work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I DO NOT SUPPORT THE POST, but here was his response on facebook, and a followup explaining what kind of kit he got for $10k He's on the younger side, and sounds like he's trying to work his way up. He got plenty of replies about learning within a more seasoned sound team (and working up in the department) instead of getting some gear and going to mix crap jobs. He's got a fine interview kit, which would pay him more than mixing "features" from CL: " haha that was mine actually. And yes I know it's still low but I didn't want to explode the brains of the craigslist crowd. I figured this is a good starting point for negotiation. Unfortunately, I don't have lectros, comteks, and all the lovely stuff that I'd want. But I am looking for work...anyone need a good boom op??" " I was able to get a 744t, mixpre, ntg3, and 2 g series wireless and boom." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Woodcock Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I DO NOT SUPPORT THE POST, but here was his response on facebook, and a followup explaining what kind of kit he got for $10k He's on the younger side, and sounds like " haha that was mine actually. And yes I know it's still low but I didn't want to explode the brains of the craigslist crowd. I figured " " I was able to get a 744t, mixpre, ntg3, and 2 g series wireless and boom." good kit for ENG for 10k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I can appreciate the spirit of him knowing the rate is crap, and posting something like that. He says $350+$100 to people trying to pay $100 or $150 labor and kit all-in. Him charging $100/day for his $10k kit is what he *should* be getting for the 744T (not factoring in 3 day week, 3 week month etc that the Usual Suspects offer without negotiation). Let's look at the kit.... *SAY* it's 20 shooting days at 5 day weeks (so, a month). $100/day for the 744T with a 3 day week and 3 week month means $900/month. Online I found Sennheiser G3s for $375/month (they do months at 7.5 days). That's $1,650 and he needs to provide the shotgun/boom pole, batteries etc. At $100/day kit he's collecting $2000 for kit. He's not really off rental houses from what I see. As long as he holds his ground and doesn't provide Comteks and more wireless out of his labor money, he's not too insane. Again, I don't know the guy... just playing Devil's advocate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 At the risk of pissing off a few people here.. I'm not sure what the problem is.. He's declaring that this is the absolute minimal. I don't see a problem saying this is the minimal. I think you guys are jumping to think he's saying, this is what everyone should be making.. It's not.. this is a suggested minimal. Doesn't anyone seam to understand this?? -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 " He's declaring that this is the absolute minimal. " as if s/he could... and I am disagreeing with that as well as the proposed minimum itself. S/he can set her/his own personal minimum, just as each of us can, and do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephensharrod Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Whoa, I didn't know my moderate entertainment for some low balled craiglister (that my friend posted on my Facebook) would provide and equal amount of discussion for everyone. I'm sure you've figured out by now I'm a pup to the industry and after just moving to CA, found I could relate to his frustrations, as I'm sure most fellas in my situation could do (being fairly fresh) . This is what I hear so often about younger cats (like me) under cutting and destroying the industry. And it doesn't help this is the norm for the Indie filmmaking. No, from a professional stand point it's not cool to post it but as I'm in this guys shoes, I can certainly relate. Having said that the jobs I do (at this point in my career), that have enough to pay me a certain amount get that amount of gear along with me. I heard a great story of a well experienced mixer would brought his entire arsenal with him but only used what they'd paid him for. A little much? Or was he trying to prove a point? I appreciate all the comments but my reasoning behind posting and the thread title was I guess out of frustration for the situation that I and many others are facing at this very early stage (as a young soundie) We saved our pennies, dug into our end of the world emergency funds to try to purchase, IMO quality gear and only to be LB by a craigslister and amateur filmmakers in general. Again that's the level I'm at though. (So many of you are obviously more legit, (but hey that's why I joined the forums in the first place so I could get this sage like advice! )I'm also on a dreadful thing right now where the DP is pretty much running everything, because he has to. Or maybe I should've have posted it in the first place.... Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 " He's declaring that this is the absolute minimal. " as if s/he could... and I am disagreeing with that as well as the proposed minimum itself. S/he can set her/his own personal minimum, just as each of us can, and do. Have to agree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 I agree with Richard. $450 as a minimal rate for a very basic system is not outrageous for somebody starting out. I know quite a few mixers (including me) who have more than $10,000 tied up in microphones! Once you add in mixers, recorders, and wireless, it can go well beyond $50K in a heartbeat. Bells and whistles double that real fast. But not every project deserves that kind of approach. A couple of lavs, a boom, a simple recorder... $10K would buy that. As a cry against the morons who expect people to work for $150/day for a low end project, it's not an unreasonable message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Senator.. a personal minimum, has nothing to do with the hard facts of purchasing gear. -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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