Room Tone - Repost of Topic from the General Discussion page.

[Matt]

Hey,

This is a repost of a topic from the General Discussion section of the site. I was wanting a take on this from a post engineer's perspective.

I have been on more than one shoot for a commercial recently where a particular AD in town has refused to get room tone at the end of the shoot day saying it is because, "Everyone would kill her if we stop for that at the end of the day." This after I asked for it earlier in the day. Admittedly, this translates to either, "I want to go home and don't care," or "I have absolutely no control of my set".

But, this brings up the topic, how often do you get room tone from set? Do you ever get it on 30 second commercial spots? Or do you just build the background from other sources? Is it even needed anymore with the strip silence feature in Pro Tools? Do you always get it for episodic television productions? What about films?

I know the answer is that it probably depends on many factors, but that is exactly what I'm interested I'm interested in knowing. What is your experience with this?

Thanks in advance!

-Matt Hamilton

[studiomprd]

" "Everyone would kill her if we stop for that at the end of the day." "

that is not a post perspective...

and it is a very real issue, not that there would be an actual murder, but because those folks with experience know what the results would actually be! (and that is usually 'not too good'...) including a perception that sound (you in particular) added to the shoot's OT bill..(and maybe even a meal penalty)

I'm also going to mention that this is not necessarily a new topic, as jwsoundgroup is pretty casual about the actual grouping of threads, and who reads and responds to what...

" how often do you get room tone from set? Do you ever get it on 30 second commercial spots? Or do you just build the background from other sources? Is it even needed anymore with the strip silence feature in Pro Tools? Do you always get it for episodic television productions? What about films? "

but I take note: " that is exactly what I'm interested I'm interested in knowing. " and I believe the answers are already there, (and keep in mind the statistical validity of any sampling you could get on jwsoundgroup.net)

how often do you get room tone from set? sometimes Do you ever get it on 30 second commercial spots? yes, sometimes Or do you just build the background from other sources?not always, but sometimes Is it even needed anymore with the strip silence feature in Pro Tools? yes, sometimes, and sometimes it is preferred Do you always get it for episodic television productions? sometimes What about films? sometimes

OK, inquiring minds want to know, but what difference does it make..? either you try to get it when appropriate, or you don't. either you get to get it, or you don't.

for me, and I suspect for many of us (production) either we figure it out for the production we are on, or we become a squeaky wheel, in which case we may get a better result, or get a bad rep as a PITA. For post either they wish they had more (ambiance) and deal with it, or they get plenty, and deal with that, even if that means they don't use it all (as in they do use strip-silence, or get it at the beginning / end of a take, or they make up a complete ambiance of their own!)

sorry, but there won't be a "one size fits all"...

I've said before (twice) that you have to figure out your battles, and in many circumstances, communications with your post team can provide important guidance as to what they want, need, and will back you up on... getting thrown under the bus is not pleasant!

I notice this is pretty much your original post,...

from reading your original post, you seem, to me, to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about the AD (or AD's) who have resisted your requests. I believe the responses have made it clear that you are not alone, and we have ways to deal with the issue.

[Marc Wielage]

I agree with The Senator above. One key issue might be whether it might be possible to sort out issues like this the day before the shoot. Ask for a production meeting with at least the DP, AD, Director, Editor, and Producer present, and bring up the importance of room tone and insist that they give you at least :20 seconds or :30 seconds before wrapping each scene. Make it clear that they have to settle the crewmembers and actors, or else it could potentially create costly issues in post. (The editor will no doubt back you up on this, if they have any experience at this.)

At the same time, I believe you have to pick your battles wisely, and understand that if the director is freaking out from falling behind on getting the shots for the day, the DP is freaking out because he's losing the light, and the producer is freaking out because we're about to get kicked off the location, your need for another :30 seconds of roomtone is going to be very, very low on their list of priorities. If they won't or can't give that time to you, make it clear in a memo to the producer. I usually do this when I email a sound report PDF to the editor and/or producer that evening, just as a polite "oh, by the way" in the email. I don't assign blame; I just say, "I requested roomtone but we were unable to get any for this scene due to schedule issues, but there may be a few quiet non-dialogue moments in previous takes that might suffice."

I recently had an AD who was quite sympathetic to our situation but was overruled by the director, so a few times we shrugged at each other and moved on. If I threw a fit, I don't think it would have worked, and it might have accelerated an already-stressful situation to something worse.

[studiomprd]

" Ask for a production meeting with at least... "

this meeting (with most department heads invited!) is SOP on what I call "real" or "proper" productions.

Marc has taken my points and amplified the,m clearly and well...

[RJBerto]

....I have been on more than one shoot for a commercial recently where a particular AD in town has refused to get room tone at the end of the shoot day...

I have limited experience in post, but what I have found is that room tone at the end of the day is going to be pretty much useless against anything but the last takes of the day. Mics in different positions, different number of people in the room standing in different places, ambient noise (traffic, etc...) sounds different at different parts of the day, temp changes, etc... all conspire to make your room tone sound different than it did at the beginning of the day. The best matching tone comes from the same take you are editing and I've had some luck on set talking to the AD/Director about giving me 5 sec of silence before calling action, the Director/Editor type is happy to oblige.

[Mark Orusa]

I have limited experience in post, but what I have found is that room tone at the end of the day is going to be pretty much useless against anything but the last takes of the day. Mics in different positions, different number of people in the room standing in different places, ambient noise (traffic, etc...) sounds different at different parts of the day, temp changes, etc... all conspire to make your room tone sound different than it did at the beginning of the day. The best matching tone comes from the same take you are editing and I've had some luck on set talking to the AD/Director about giving me 5 sec of silence before calling action, the Director/Editor type is happy to oblige.

This

Mark O.

[rb1138]

I have limited experience in post, but what I have found is that room tone at the end of the day is going to be pretty much useless against anything but the last takes of the day. Mics in different positions, different number of people in the room standing in different places, ambient noise (traffic, etc...) sounds different at different parts of the day, temp changes, etc... all conspire to make your room tone sound different than it did at the beginning of the day. The best matching tone comes from the same take you are editing and I've had some luck on set talking to the AD/Director about giving me 5 sec of silence before calling action, the Director/Editor type is happy to oblige.

Currently, I'm helping to sound edit a feature I did the production sound on. It's definitely been an enlightening experience. As a result, I feel all production mixers should do post to see what it is they need to get on set, and what they can get away with (because of time constraints). All your mistakes come back to bite you on the behind, while also patting yourself on the back for what you did right. It really makes you feel what all the struggle for production sound is for. Never mind the actors and ADR. I think it's to save that poor dialogue editor a massive headache.

Room tone used to be a big mystery for me. I did it just because that's what everybody did. I never really questioned it. I did the usual 30-60 seconds whenever I could. But now, after trying to sound edit a film for the first time, I can't see how the 60 seconds at the end is logical at all. I found that the room tone at the end never matched many of the shots.

Another realization is that the room tone sounds different on the lavaliers than on the boom microphone (often, the actors would already be gone so I would have to get tone on just the boom). I've tried to get actors to stay put for room tone, but am not always successful. I always had trouble motivating myself to do this because I didn't know if it's something that was ever actually used. Now I know I want it. The film I did had something like seven lavaliers running at once. Trying to find tone all of them really is a nightmare.

Note that the camera used was a Red Scarlet, and therefore the cam noise was quite different from shot to shot. Yes, you can use noise reduction, but you're not supposed to use noise reduction until the end of the chain. Purcell says we're supposed to smooth out shots using fades and adding room tone around as much as possible even before we apply noise reduction. But, man, is it a major pain! Trying to find room tone for just a few seconds is such a struggle, and I only get three seconds or less sometimes.

Following John Purcell's instructions in Dialogue Editing, I did the whole cutting silences (like with strip silence), then cutting out the little sounds, and finally crossfading. It works, but it still takes time. And something about the process kind of stresses me out. Time better spent on other things that I know might give me results. Could this have been avoided maybe by that 5-second approach? Does it work? I'd love to know. I'd rather do that than get that often useless tone at the end.

There are exceptions I guess. I suppose if the location was very quiet (sound stage?) or if the location was very noisy, room tone at the end might work. In the former, room tone might be the same everywhere. In the second it's more about plugging in ambience. I have found this to be the case in noisier locations in the film I'm doing. Also NO REDS. Whenever I do production sound around these cameras, I just feel slightly insulted and always confused about how to do my job. Has anybody been around cheap dimmers? DPs have used them on low budget films I've worked on. And the noise from these pieces of garbage is ubiquitous. I can't tell where it's coming from and it changes when I cue. It makes me uneasy, and it confuses me when I cue. I don't think human beings are supposed to be hearing these unsettling high-pitched noises all day. Redcam noise has a similar effect.

I didn't think about the "end of the day" thing. The location I was in was rather isolated (late night shoot), but I suppose if it was during the day.... Has anybody noticed how things get very busy as the day progresses? At early call times, the ambient noise is pretty great. If I ever got to make a movie, I think I'd try to plan all the dialogue in the very beginning of the day, if possible. Or at the very end?

Sawrab

Edited April 8, 2013 by srab1138

[studiomprd]

" and I only get three seconds or less sometimes."

three good seconds is usually plenty, these days.

[VASI]

Three good seconds cost money for production.

Haha

[Marc Wielage]

All your mistakes come back to bite you on the behind, while also patting yourself on the back for what you did right. It really makes you feel what all the struggle for production sound is for. Never mind the actors and ADR. I think it's to save that poor dialogue editor a massive headache.

These are valuable lessons. I wrote an article for the Coffey Sound magazine last year that touched on these topics -- how location sound mixers need to consult with the post mixer (or the sound supervisor) during a film to make sure that each is getting what the other needs in order to do their jobs.

Another realization is that the room tone sounds different on the lavaliers than on the boom microphone (often, the actors would already be gone so I would have to get tone on just the boom). I've tried to get actors to stay put for room tone, but am not always successful.

Yep, you gotta get everybody to stand in place and get room tone on every microphone used in the scene, preferably at the same time. If there's a noisy camera, have it running while you do room tone. There ain't no shortcuts. If they won't do it, take the AD and/or producer aside and warn them that this will take lots of time and money to fix in post, and make sure you send them a written email to that effect if you're overruled. I find :10 seconds of room tone is fine, but I ask for :30 seconds in the hopes that ten of it will actually be usable. I assume the dialogue editor and/or re-recording mixer will take that :10 seconds and extend it, or they'll dig into the discarded takes and find better room tone in there.

Purcell says we're supposed to smooth out shots using fades and adding room tone around as much as possible even before we apply noise reduction. But, man, is it a major pain! Trying to find room tone for just a few seconds is such a struggle, and I only get three seconds or less sometimes.

Life is hard! Do your best in the time available. Eventually, you can get faster at it, plus you'll learn little shortcuts that make the session go faster. My advice: complain less and work harder, and you'll eventually chip away at the mountain.

I have found this to be the case in noisier locations in the film I'm doing. Also NO REDS. Whenever I do production sound around these cameras, I just feel slightly insulted and always confused about how to do my job.

The top sound mixers in the world, the guys who have done dozens of major A-list features and have numerous awards and nominations, virtually never get to veto locations or choices of cameras. You just have to find a way to make them work. The tools to reduce location noise, like CEDAR, iZotope, Waves DNS, and others, all can help to some degree. My advice would be to listen to some major current network TV series with headphones, and note how much noise you hear in location shots. I heard an episode of Fringe yesterday and had to chuckle at the noise pumping that went on during a rough dialogue scene on a street, and another one in a wooded area. They did their best to smooth over the problems, and the dialogue still told the story and the scene worked just fine. Could it have been improved? Probably not on a TV budget and schedule. Was it perfect? Absolutely not. But the seams and flaws are still there if you listen to them, and this is a major network series.

[Matt]

Thanks everyone! Great information.

[conleec]

As a television and motion picture editor, I can tell you I almost NEVER get room tone to work with. Occasionally it makes the sound report and I can order it up. But it definitely seems to be something that isn't often done anymore. And as has been mentioned numerous times, it really only helps if it's done for each setup, because every time the camera or lights move, the sound changes. Age old problem, made better (and worse) by the fact that we now have a bunch of tools to help deal with it.

Chris

[Patrick K]

Interesting. I just dealt with this issue while doing post for a short film. Thanks for the post/ideas.

[Marc Wielage]

Wearing my post supervisor hat this afternoon, I just sat through an ADR spotting session with our dialogue editor, and he thanked me profusely for giving him usable room tone. He said this saved us in several situations, as did giving him some alternate line reads and wild lines, along with fairly thorough sound reports and every iso track clearly labeled with the character name. 

 

I hear different things from different people, and occasionally work for a specific commercial director who gets verklempt when I request room tone at the end of a location, insisting "he never uses room tone in an edit." So there ya go... clearly, different strokes.

[Marc Wielage]

It also requires the lights and the room acoustics to all remain the same, if you can get them to roll the camera, great, but I've never experienced that benefit.

 

I've occasionally worked with the same DP on a series of commercials over the past couple of years, and I've been pleased that on the last few shoots, when I yelled out the need for us to roll for room tone, he'd call back, "rolling camera for room tone!" In this case, it was a Red Epic, and we needed that "distant fan noise" to match everything else shot that day.

 

I also roll multi-track anyway, so we'd get the lavs, the boom, whatever is up -- the biggest problem is trying to get the actors not to move. I've started to say, "everybody, hold your breath for room tone!" in hopes of minimizing their movements.

[Constantin]

Richard, thank you for your post. While reading this thread, I was beginning to worry that roomtone should be done before every single camera position change. I do do some post production sometimes, so I know of the value of good roomtone, but on the projects I'm working on on set, it's usually difficult enough to get any roomtone at all.

There's no way I could get it after every shot. The problem is, when the AD finally does give in to my requests, half of the actors have already gone, the other half has already ripped off their lavs, and once the call for roomtone comes, a stampede sets in with the rest of the crew to get out of the building for a quick cigarette. Some ADs will even support this, by starting a countdown. Whoever hasn't left the room by the end of it, has to stay for the entire (!) roomtone.

I keep saying to them, I just need 30 seconds and it'd be MUCH quicker to just do it immediately, but it can be difficult. Much depends on the AD and my relationship to him. As it improves. It becomes easier to me to explain my needs and easier for him/her to understand them. And there are many experienced ADs who will get furious if someone talks during roomtone, considering it their responsibility not mine

[Jan McL]

Is anybody really regularly doing 30 seconds of standard room tone these days? I'll take 5 seconds of really clean tone (no talking/shuffling etc.) any day and know that "NJ" post is happy with that. Some kind of noise during standard tone roll, I add a second before calling, "Thanks, y'all." In the meantime, part of my brain's always aware of clean pauses before, during, and after takes when I'm rolling and make a clear note of same. When that happens, I don't acquire new. The only time I'd get longer tone is for some non-standard, unique-to-location, likely-to-go-away or weather-related event. During loud EXT or INT scenes, the boom is often all slate and tone, and duly noted on the sound report. If not, I'll set up a mic just for tone well away from the crew.

[rb1138]

Richard, thank you for your post. While reading this thread, I was beginning to worry that roomtone should be done before every single camera position change. I do do some post production sometimes, so I know of the value of good roomtone, but on the projects I'm working on on set, it's usually difficult enough to get any roomtone at all.

 

Yes I've had the same misgivings. 30 seconds of roomtone for every setup would not be acceptable to the AD. From my little sound editing experience, however, I can confirm to you that there is a different roomtone for every setup. This is especially true I think if there's a single source of noise, like a window or a vent...or a camera. As you move the shot, obviously the ambiance recorded on boom & lavs (especially the boom since it moves, and this is the whole reason lavaliers have different roomtones from each other) will change because you're moving closer/farther from the source. The other problem is the whole idea of getting roomtone from silences between lines. This can work, but only if people aren't shuffling around. 

 

I'm trying to get into informing everyone of the 5-second technique. And I also wait a little bit after "speed!" is called to inform them that I have sped. Sometimes a little annoying since I do have to hold the boom up while I'm doing this. Just trying to include as much silence as I can. Kinda like a little game.  I wonder though because if the take hasn't begun, actors may not be in the right position at the start so the 5-second thing couldn't always work. Anyway 10 really good seconds for every setup would be plenty. Still trying to figure out the best plan of attack. 

 

 

 

What Jan said I've noticed as well. I tend to note when there's some good silence and know that I don't have to get tone for that setup. 

 

 

 

Sawrab

[Constantin]

Yes, ideally, roomtone should be recorded for every setup, but if you really start doing that, shouldn't we also start recording roomtone for every boom position? I mean if you are following two actors with the boom, the roomtone will sound slightly different, especially if there is louder source of noise of something. I think noting the takes where there were a few seconds of usable silence is probably the most useful practice. That should give post plenty to work with, without us obsessing getting every conceivable type of roomtone

[chris_bollard]

It's standard practice to record Room Tone (or ATMOS) for each setup, not every mic position. As said before its part of our job. It's not our job to make decisions normally made by post; we don't like being told how to do our job by post. <br /><br />I work with one commercial director who insists on using the room tone at the start of a take. Not my call but it works for him. <br /><br />

[rb1138]

Yes, ideally, roomtone should be recorded for every setup, but if you really start doing that, shouldn't we also start recording roomtone for every boom position? I mean if you are following two actors with the boom, the roomtone will sound slightly different, especially if there is louder source of noise of something. I think noting the takes where there were a few seconds of usable silence is probably the most useful practice. That should give post plenty to work with, without us obsessing getting every conceivable type of roomtone

 

You're right. Every boom position does sound different. We should have different roomtones for those as well. See it never ends, hahaha. Also I've wondered if we should get individual room tones for moving shots, like a boom moving from A to B, or a dolly where a Red moves away slowly (but the boom and lavs are stationary). The room tone does change as this happens. Another one is I was trying to use room tone for a walk-and-talk scene, and I realized that the silent room tone I had recorded on set didn't work. I needed roomtone with footsteps in it because I was using it to plug in problem sounds (radio troubles) during the walk-and-talk (it's probably less of a issue if we just had some Foleys tho). 

 

EDIT: Every lav position too. Like if an actor is facing the noise source or facing away from the noise source. 

 

I think sometimes ADR/wild lines are just the answer. 

 

 

Sawrab

Edited April 8, 2013 by srab1138

[Constantin]

Yes, well, that probably is taking it a bit far. It depends in the rooms, as well. It it is really really quiet, it'll be mostly hiss. I don't think the mic positions matter too much then.

I still think RVDs approach os the most sensible, mixed with what Jan said. In addition, whenever there is a chance, I'll try to identify the loudest part of the roomtone, a light, AC, or whatever, and then do a close-up recording of that. Mixing that in with the regular roomtone and the mic position changed should be less obvious

[rb1138]

RVD's absolutely right in that the rmtone from the closer shots was the major problem in the film I was working on. Of course, ours was a special case in that we had seven characters each with their own shot. At least I could do the 5-second technique to ease things up a bit.

I guess that could work, Constantin. Try it out and let us know.

Sawrab

[Constantin]

No, I am using it already. I think it works, but I haven't yet had a good chat with the sound editor on my last project about it

[studiomprd]

" Is anybody really regularly doing 30 seconds of standard room tone these days? "

yes, it would seem so,  though there are numerous opinions and actual practices...

I've long since incorporated a couple seconds delay into my "speed" call,

 

" I also wait a little bit after "speed!" is called to inform them that I have sped. "

HUH??