744T and Leopard

[Jeff Wexler]

I tried to connect my 744T to my PowerBook (running Leopard now) and I

could not get the Hard Drive to mount on the Desktop. Courtney explained

to me that with the new firmware I have to make a menu selection

(Firewire connect) HDD+STOP to access Internal Hard Drive. This finally

worked but mounting, unmounting and file transfer speed was very slow.

I don't know if this is a Leopard (OS X 10.5.1) problem or something

wrong with my 744T. I have now updated to v. 2.40 firmware and there

seems to be some improvement.

Anyone else having any of these problems?

Regards, Jeff Wexler

[Jeff Wexler]

What version is your hardware? v2.0 ready (behind the battery)? Do you

have any speed issues running it on 10.4.X? Have you reformatted the

744T HDD? Do you have another firewire cable? Is the battery fully

charged? How about using the AC power?

Scott

Hardware is v. 2 update, firmware is 2.40 running just fine

Haven't tried it with older 10.4 (I need to find one of my Macs still running 10.4)

HDD is newly formatted

Firewire cables are fine, battery fully charged, AC operation I haven't tried yet

I don't know if it is a Leopard issue, I was just asking the question.

[miker71]

I'm running 10.5.1 and haven't noticed any slowdown over previous versions of Leopard/Tiger and my 702T, also running with the v2.40 firmware.

I don't know how noisy the hard drive normally is in the 744T (I would guess inaudible), but if it has started making 'ticking' noises and is slow this could be a sign of continuous error correction ... which could mean the disk is on the way out or the filesystem has become corrupted (it uses FAT32 which is not a journaled filesystem so there is higher potential for data loss or corruption if the recorder is not shutdown cleanly or not unmounted properly).

I hear 10.5.2 is on the way January-ish

[bcopenhagen]

Which would answer your question as to it being slow. Since the FW400 spec is 400MB/Sec they are well under that bench mark

Not to nitpick, but....

we should be careful with "Mb" and "MB" here.

Mb = MegaBITS

MB = MegaBYTES

8 bits in a Byte

Firewire 400 is spec'd at 400 Mb/sec, which is roughly 50MB/sec.

Sound Devices said 50Mb/s in their firmware note.

Did they misprint?  If they meant 50MB/s, they are in line with the FW spec.

Or did they print correctly? In which case we should see transfer speeds closer to 6.25MB/s

(in which case Scott is correct that they are well under the FW400 spec.  Tho it seems odd that they would only achieve 1/64 the rated speed of firewire!)

I'm curious about this now...as I'm looking closely at diving into a 744T myself.

-Brian

[studiomprd]

an email or call to SD would get the answer...

(Maybe it is soooo obvious that no one realizes how easy it is to contact the manufacturer for the best possible answers to soooo many questions)

[Jeff Wexler]

Since the question was posted on Saturday and the SD office is closed until Wednesday I guess it is soooo obvious why the question was posted online.

Sound Devices does have really good support and they have a new users Forum which is very useful. As I said before, I did not assume that this is a Leopard problem (notwithstanding the title of this discussion) but I just thought that other SD 744T users might have experienced the same things. After upgrading to v. 2.40, hard disk does mount properly and transfer speeds are what I expect to see from this machine (more or less the same as it was prior to v. 2.0x revision).

-  Jeff Wexler

[Guest jimg]

Jeff,

The firewire connection is slow. I haven't measured performance when the recorder is connected to my Powerbook, but 50 Mb/sec. doesn't seem far off what I've been getting, based on transfers direct from the recorder versus transferring the same material via a firewire CF card reader.

Best regards,

Jim 

[bcopenhagen]

Perhaps this thread should become 744T and transfer speeds....

So, by my estimates, a DVD's worth of material (approx 4.4 GB) takes somewhwere around 10-15 minutes to copy from 744T via the FW interface?

Based on people's real-world experience, does that sound roughly accurate?

My math:

50 Mb/s = 6.25 MB/s = 375 MB/minute

4400 MB / 375 MB = just under 12 minutes (11.73)

Thanks.  Just trying to get an idea of what to expect if copying is part of a daily workflow.

-Brian

[miker71]

I just copied 2.21GB (as measured in Finder) from my 702T (Compact Flash only) to my MacBook and it took eight minutes.

[Guest jimg]

Perhaps this thread should become 744T and transfer speeds....

So, by my estimates, a DVD's worth of material (approx 4.4 GB) takes somewhwere around 10-15 minutes to copy from 744T via the FW interface?

Based on people's real-world experience, does that sound roughly accurate?

My math:

50 Mb/s = 6.25 MB/s = 375 MB/minute

4400 MB / 375 MB = just under 12 minutes (11.73)

Thanks.  Just trying to get an idea of what to expect if copying is part of a daily workflow.

-Brian

Hi, Brian

That's pretty much the story using the firewire connection. I found it's a bunch faster to use the CF card for transfers via a FW800 reader. I've got to move some files off the recorder to my archive drive for the commercial I just wrapped, about 2.6 gigs of stuff, so I'll dupe it all to a CF card in the recorder and put a stopwatch on the transfer for both ways.

Have a great holiday!

Jim

[Guest klingklang]

Perhaps this thread should become 744T and transfer speeds....

So, by my estimates, a DVD's worth of material (approx 4.4 GB) takes somewhwere around 10-15 minutes to copy from 744T via the FW interface?

Based on people's real-world experience, does that sound roughly accurate?

My math:

50 Mb/s = 6.25 MB/s = 375 MB/minute

4400 MB / 375 MB = just under 12 minutes (11.73)

Thanks.  Just trying to get an idea of what to expect if copying is part of a daily workflow.

-Brian

Copying 4GB of data from a regular FW-drive takes about 4 minutes.

If you transfer from the CF-card using a reader you should get much higher rates than transfering directly from the 744.

[bcopenhagen]

2.6 gigs of stuff, so I'll dupe it all to a CF card in the recorder and put a stopwatch on the transfer for both ways.

Jim

Thanks for the info, Jim.  I'll look for your relay times.

Cheers,

Brian

[Guest jimg]

Here's what I discovered:

The computer is a Powerbook, 1.5 GHz processor, 2 GB ram, 80 GB 5400 rpm drive running 10.4.11. The CF card reader is the SanDisk Extreme Firewire model and the 744T is running 2.40 with a 160 GB 5400 rpm drive. Speed tests in the 744T show speeds of 9.3 MB/sec for the hard drive and 4.0 MB/sec for the CF card, which is a Silicon Power card from Newegg.

I transferred 2.56 GB of data from both the internal drive and CF card. It took about 3 min, 22.1 sec. from the CF card via the reader and about 7 min., 22.6 sec. from the internal drive via FW. Interesting to me was that with both the CF card, via the reader and the 744T drive mounted on the laptop, the times were longer - 5 sec. for the CF card and 7 sec. for the hard drive. I haven't done the math, but the internal drive wasn't as slow as I expected.

With a faster CF card, I'm guessing the results would change substantially, but the cards I have were inexpensive and perfectly fine for 4 track, 24 bit, 48 kHz use. I'd also like to see how quickly the same files would burn to a DVD via a burn folder on the Mac, without transferring from the hard drive recorder to the laptop.

Best regards,

Jim

[Jeff Wexler]

Thanks for taking the time to run these real world test. I am sure this will be helpful for those using the 744T as their main machine and helpful in quantifying things which they may have already experienced. I imagine that those using the 744T full time have established a workflow and delivery system that suits the work they are doing. It has been said before that if telecine/transfer/editorial could get it together to utilize compact flash more directly, many of these speed - transfer - burning issues would be taken out of our hands.

-  Jeff Wexler

[Marc Wielage]

It has been said before that if telecine/transfer/editorial could get it together to utilize compact flash more directly, many of these speed - transfer - burning issues would be taken out of our hands.

Jeff, our problem in post is that (as far as I know) nobody makes a CF record/playback audio device that will slave to external sync and can be run via an RS-422 port. Whether the telecine facility uses Aaton or Evertz/Tracker, the BWAVs have to be transferred to something else (hard drive or DVD-RAM) before it can play back for the dailies.

Dailies people are also under the gun, working under terrible pressure to get all the dailies synced up and transferred at lightning speed, so that all the studio execs and production crewmembers can see the material before noon. If we have to transfer the CF cards to DVD-RAM (or a hard drive), it'd add another 10-15 minutes to the session (assuming a couple of gigs' worth of material).

Post facilities can easily copy the material from CF to DVD-RAM, but they'll no doubt charge the client more than the location sound mixer would charge. It'd require at least one new person just to prep and copy the files for the telecine session, and I'm not sure post houses are willing to eat this cost.

Maybe Fostex will remedy this problem by making an inexpensive (>$1000) playback device that can take a CF card, lock it to external sync, and play it back under RS-422 control. But on the negative side, I'm skeptical of the long-term durability of a CF card, particularly considering how messengers and vault people slam the material in boxes and throw them on shelves. I haven't seen a cracked DVD-RAM disk yet, but I have seen busted DVD boxes quite a few times.

The other solution is to have Sound Devices speed up their firewire transfer speed. Is it significantly slower to copy files from the 744t to DVD-RAM than the Deva?

[cmgoodin]

Jeff, our problem in post is that (as far as I know) nobody makes a CF record/playback audio device that will slave to external sync and can be run via an RS-422 port. Whether the telecine facility uses Aaton or Evertz/Tracker, the BWAVs have to be transferred to something else (hard drive or DVD-RAM) before it can play back for the dailies.

Dailies people are also under the gun, working under terrible pressure to get all the dailies synced up and transferred at lightning speed, so that all the studio execs and production crew-members can see the material before noon. If we have to transfer the CF cards to DVD-RAM (or a hard drive), it'd add another 10-15 minutes to the session (assuming a couple of gigs' worth of material).

Post facilities can easily copy the material from CF to DVD-RAM, but they'll no doubt charge the client more than the location sound mixer would charge. It'd require at least one new person just to prep and copy the files for the telecine session, and I'm not sure post houses are willing to eat this cost.

Maybe Fostex will remedy this problem by making an inexpensive (>$1000) playback device that can take a CF card, lock it to external sync, and play it back under RS-422 control. But on the negative side, I'm skeptical of the long-term durability of a CF card, particularly considering how messengers and vault people slam the material in boxes and throw them on shelves. I haven't seen a cracked DVD-RAM disk yet, but I have seen busted DVD boxes quite a few times.

The other solution is to have Sound Devices speed up their firewire transfer speed. Is it significantly slower to copy files from the 744t to DVD-RAM than the Deva?

Marc,

I think the new Tascam X-48 has firewire ports and USB-2 Ports for mounting external drives, so an external CF Card reader could be plugged in and then accessed directly to use in chase-lock mode just like the internal HD.  It has full Sony 9 pin remote control and external Sync reference (Tri-level or Black Burst).  You may also be able to use the cheaper Tascam HD-P2 as it says it will chase lock it's CF files to external Time Code.

As far as durability. I think CF Ram is the most durable Media available.  It's hard case and recessed connector make it pretty indestructible.  Much more durable than a DVD-RAM or DVD-R or DAT tape.  They are pretty hard to crush. I have even had people say theirs have been run over by trucks and still work.  The question about failure rate has to do with re-Write cycles.  Flash Ram has a limited number of times it can be re-written before it starts to get flaky.  But since BWF recording is pretty linear and creates long files, I think the longevity Limit would never be reached.  Especially if the CF card is archived and not repeatedly used.  Where they can fail is where they are used as SS Drives in computers that repeatedly write to the same sectors and log files every time they boot.  Of course you can always damage the pins on the card socket (in the device not the card itself) . But if you use an external USB CF card reader (about $10) you can easily replace them if they get damaged.

---Courtney

[Phil Palmer]

The other solution is to have Sound Devices speed up their firewire transfer speed. Is it significantly slower to copy files from the 744t to DVD-RAM than the Deva?

Actually the DEVA is slower.  I frequently load a DVD-RAM a little late in the morning, if there was a lot going on, then copy over the first few segments to the DVD-RAMs.  I have a 702T as my back up machine and DEVA V as primary.  Same amount of info goes to each disk, as I only put a 2 track mix for telecine on DVD-RAM and the multi track goes in on a HD.  I often hit the copy buttons at the same time to see which one will copy fastest.  The SD 702T always wins.

~pwp

www.palmeraudio.net

[Jeff Wexler]

Marc,

I think the new Tascam X-48 has firewire ports and USB-2 Ports for mounting external drives, so an external CF Card reader could be plugged in and then accessed directly to use in chase-lock mode just like the internal HD.  It has full Sony 9 pin remote control and external Sync reference (Tri-level or Black Burst).

---Courtney

It is interesting that you mention the Tascam X-48 because it reminds me of one of the earliest workflows we adopted back when the Deva was the only recorder doing sound files (and we were trying to figure out how to make this all work). At that time, over 10 years ago, we used the ubiquitous Tascam MMR-8 as the host "computer" with first an external Jaz drive connected and then later a DVD-RAM drive. I worked with both Soundelux and the Post Group on several movies this way.

-  Jeff Wexler

[Matt Mayer]

I never felt the firewire speed was fully maximized and I think there is thread on the http://forums.sounddevices.com/

Sorry to jump in so late.  Didn't see this as I don't regularly look in the Mac forum.

The firewire speed is what it is for the foreseeable future.  It is faster than the original release, which took quite a bit of re-coding.

I don't think there would be much of a speed difference between the 744 and the Deva as the 5x DVD-RAM media would be the limiting factor.

---Matt

[wbrisett]

I don't think there would be much of a speed difference between the 744 and the Deva as the 5x DVD-RAM media would be the limiting factor.

But there are of course more ways than DVD-RAM to mirror from the Deva. If I'm not having to do dailies, then I mirror to a hard drive which is pretty fast.

To be fair, while I didn't do direct comparisons, the one time I had to move files over from the 722, I didn't think it took any more time than mirroring the equivalent data I had on the Deva. But I was using 10.4/Tiger at the time.

Wayne