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Boom mixed with lav? Or just lav. From John Purcell's Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures


rb1138

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" Don’t be a nudnik, "

::)

" Ask the mixer what s/he wants. " and " ask the mixer "

meaning the production mixer should ask the post mixer(s)...right?

(it might help clarity if you distinguish amongst PSM's and PPSM's...

great to have you here discussing with us!

" I hear comb filtering when the two microphones are at certain distances, for example. "

yep

" about the rerecording mixer, of which there is none on this project "

in which case, it isn't about the rerecording mixer.

I meant to say that the dial editor needs to talk to the rerecording mixer concerning track design, preferences, mic choices. I didn't mean the location mixer.

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That was done on some occasions in The King's Speech, but not always. It's impossible to predict in any given situation what will sound work: boom only, lav only, lav mixed a little with boom (or boom mixed a little with lav), lav with a little added 'verb, or ADR. Try it and see. I think making it real and consistent is the hard part. And of course dialogue intelligibility is number one.

Holy bejesus. I can hear this in The King's Speech now that I know about it. I can hear artificial reverb versus true reverb. The artificial reverb sounds dull, or perhaps that's how the sole lavalier sounds with artificial reverb added.

It makes sense. For the purpose of reducing overall ambient noise, it definitely makes sense to eliminate the boom in as many shots as possible. Admittedly, though, the boom's reverbation sounds far superior to the artificial kind. Or perhaps it's because of the quality of the full-size microphone itself. Perhaps there is logic to using DPA lavaliers after all.

Sawrab

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Holy bejesus. I can hear this in The King's Speech now that I know about it. I can hear artificial reverb versus true reverb. The artificial reverb sounds dull, or perhaps that's how the sole lavalier sounds with artificial reverb added.

Bah. It all sounds fine to me, and it tells the story realistically, with lots of emotion. I have no problem with that at all, and thought the sound mix throughout the movie was terrific. It got nominated for an Oscar for Best Sound (though did not win), and did win the BAFTA award.

My own philosophy is that a well-placed boom almost always sounds best provided you're in a decent location. The problem is when you're in a very sound-hostile location where a boom either isn't practical, the camera crew is uncooperative, and/or the acoustics are awful. The problem of wide & tight A&B cameras would be a good example where a boom generally can't work.

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Holy bejesus. I can hear this in The King's Speech now that I know about it. I can hear artificial reverb versus true reverb. The artificial reverb sounds dull, or perhaps that's how the sole lavalier sounds with artificial reverb added.

Sawrab

Or you think you hear it. I've had producers ask me to use production instead of ADR on lines. Only for them to discover that the line is in fact production.

The one true giveaway of added verb, vs production verb, I'd if its stereo or surround.

That's a dead giveaway.

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I know of a mixer who massively low cuts the lavs (150Hz or even higher) then mixes with boom. So you basically add presence/sibilance to the boom sound. Works well and sounds great. Try it.

That's funny, I know a mixer who does (on occasion) the exact opposite. He would cut everything above 500 Hz on lavs which are a bit noisy, thereby eliminating the clothes rustle and whatever, but adding a bit of closeness to an otherwise far away boom. It depends, I suppose

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The issue is really about two things. One is that boom microphones generally have a much better sound, even when they're far away (though such a sound might not be preferred), and two is that we're not rerecording mixers who have very nice reverb-creating equipment. I haven't really managed to create nice-sounding reverb in Pro Tools. Maybe I need to buy a plugin, or some outside...box thing. The reverb that comes from the boom mike is much nicer. It's got nuance to it. I've read that generating genuine-sounding reverb, like that of real rooms, is a complex process.

Sawrab

May I recommend the M5000 by TC Electronic. U can find them on the cheap and they are a beast of reverb and delay. They spank any plug in, convolution plug in, hands down. At least any plug in I have used.

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Hi Justin,

I have tried Altiverb and TLSpace and while I do agree they are among the better plug ins, the M5000 just sounds very natural and transparent. The M5000 also gives you 18, yes, 18 delay points to shape the walls of your space >:D .

It took a lot of convincing to get me out of plug-in land and the M5000 converted me to using outboard reverb despite the little bit of extra leg work. I enjoy the tactile feel of working with the unit too. I guess the argument here is akin to analog synths compared to plug in synths. I was able to pick up a M5000 for $825 with four engines and since then, I really cant imagine having anything else, at least in reverb/delay land, hehe.

Take care,

Paul

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Stop and think about all the reflective surfaces in a dialog shoot. Each contributes its own bounce, based on distance and surface.

Even if you're on a well-treated stage with lots of sound blankets, there will still be stuff bouncing sound around. Take the dialog to a typical location (or most former-factory "stages") and the number of reflections is almost infinite.

The best an algorithmic reverb can do is try to simulate the closest ones, and then use random delays and mixing to approximate the rest. It's never perfect, and even less-so if you're working with the limited, music-oriented presets in most DAW reverbs.

(When Barry Blesser designed the reverb for the Orban DAW, he gave it three pages of hidden knobs for tweaking those parameters. He also gave me a long lecture on what each one did, both physically and psychoacoustically, so I could design factory presets more practical for production. Dr Blesser, you may recall, invented the first studio digital reverb for EMT.)

Sampling or convolution reverbs work on a different principle. They analyze the actual reverb patterns of a room, and use AI to apply it to the signal. But they also have to take lots of shortcuts. A true sample would have to figure every possible source/mic position, and then take much too long to process with even the most powerful computers. So the ones on the market also make compromises, and many use algorithmic tricks to simulate the less important details.

--

Bottom line: it's all smoke and mirrors. When I have to mix an ADR or iso mic line in with a boom, I use enough reverb to sell the line. How much depends on the context.

But then our whole industry is smoke and mirrors.

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