ChrisH Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Just sent this to timecode buddy. "Hey guys great ideas and system but you got it backwards! I work on feature films and episodic tv. So I would need to buy multiple masters and put them on each camera. The sound cart is the central timecode clock on real productions so it's frustrating to me that you built this system for run and gun news reality and eng. can you make a cheap receiver unit so I can buy a master and put 2-3 cheap recievers on the cameras?" Does the fact that they did it this way annoy anyone else? The idea that cameras are transmitting timecode to me makes me cringe. Granted I don't work in the run and gun environment much, but it bugs me that they have basically designed the system against larger shows. By large shows I mean union shows, large budgets and either film or alexa (unfortunately sometimes red) where the sound mixer is the source of the timecode and there is proper crew ie utility, boom op and mixer and generally two to three cameras each with operator, 1st AC, 2nd AC and a DP over everyone. The cameras don't roll till after the sound mixer rolls and the boom op says speed. I know the eng reality market is getting bigger but I thought that the larger market was still in features and episodic TV, or at least thats what I hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimPitot Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Wow. Just wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 are you sure that its timecode buddy that has it the wrong way around Chris? when i worked with a mixer who has a system, he had the timecode tx in his bag and 3 master boxes receiving timecode for each camera. functioning in exactly the way you want it to. i agree that it would be nice if they also had smaller receiver only units. as for the rest of your comments. what tim said. maybe this product wasnt aimed at the Major Motion Picture Business. and what could be more real than a multi camera reality show. surely thats as real as it gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 You can already do the cheap RX-only thing with Comteks, G2s, your older Lectros etc etc.. The "joke" w/ the Buddy is that it will continue to make good TC even if it loses it's signal from the TX--it's a first class TXCO TC gen as well as an RX. Ditto w/ the Zax solution. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Hi Chris, The Zaxcom system is bulit the way you need it to be. Low cost, small, light weight receiver with TC generator and audio output as well. Makes a great IFB monitor when not used for time code distribution. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 are you sure that its timecode buddy that has it the wrong way around Chris? when i worked with a mixer who has a system, he had the timecode tx in his bag and 3 master boxes receiving timecode for each camera. functioning in exactly the way you want it to. When Chris says they have it backwards I think he means that the Master Units which are the larger, heavier, more expensive part of the system, should not have to be the unit that goes on the camera. Most productions (while not getting into what is "real" production, or a big one or a small one) have the sound mixer as the master timecode source and timecode needs to be distributed wirelessly to the cameras. The cameras should be able to have the smallest, lightest, easiest to mount receiver. I don't know enough about TimeCode Buddy system to truly address this --- cannot the Master unit be with the sound mixer and the very small and compact receivers be on the cameras? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 I think he's just critical of the size and layout of the Master Bud as it affects the mosh/battle to get stuff attached to the camera these days. The Bud TX isn't a TC gen as well, as the "master" unit is. Their idea seems to be that the soundie (with the recorder that's the real TC master) has the TX, and the cam has the "master" unit which is both an RX and a TC gen. You could put the smaller TX only unit on the cam if you wanted, then have the "master" be with the soundie receiving cam free run TC and switching the TC output over to the internal gen in case of an RF dropout, is that what the "Power Bud Users" do? That seems ok, although not what I'm used to, and there is the issue of the slate staying is sync w/ the cam (unless you put a "master Bud" on that too). If I have this all backwards please enlighten me. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Very dry sense of humour you've got there Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jared Detsikas Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 I doubt they designed it "against" real shows... The guy who did design it came from doing ENG type stuff and built it with that purpose in mind to address problems that he's run into. It shouldn't be his company's responsibility to have to design stuff for your "top tier" work first and then fill his needs second. If it's frustrating to you that they built it this way then perhaps you should not buy it. Ambient and Zaxcom have great systems that may work for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 I doubt they designed it "against" real shows... The guy who did design it came from doing ENG type stuff and built it with that purpose in mind to address problems that he's run into. It shouldn't be his company's responsibility to have to design stuff for your "top tier" work first and then fill his needs second. If it's frustrating to you that they built it this way then perhaps you should not buy it. Ambient and Zaxcom have great systems that may work for you. Ambient and Denecke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Chris, did you really meant to say, "How dare any manufacturer cater to unimportant people over the elite"? Because that's how it reads. My preferable time code arrangement is the same as yours -- my attitude is not. Of course, I'm not one of the "elite" -- I work mostly on "unreal" productions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Woodcock Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 I hope you own a TCB if not its very rude you should email a company saying you think that all their hard work and design is wrong. I know Paul the inventor and he is a lovely guy and designed something that he needed in his day to day job. I have used it on many jobs and its been flawless for me. I have said to Paul that I think the master box to lose some weight. If the TCB does not fit your needs then maybe you should build your own system or purchase an alternative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindrop Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 There's a lightweight receiver due very soon I believe....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Woodcock Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 There's a lightweight receiver due very soon I believe....... We aren't sure all Paul keeps saying is big things are coming 2013 will reveal all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisH Posted December 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Chris, did you really meant to say, "How dare any manufacturer cater to unimportant people over the elite"? Because that's how it reads. My preferable time code arrangement is the same as yours -- my attitude is not. Of course, I'm not one of the "elite" -- I work mostly on "unreal" productions. You are perhaps correct John if my attitude came across too abrasive I apologize. I don't mean to trivialize other types of production sound work, I do some bag bag work in between shows myself. I have also seen a spate of features that should be doing it properly pushing mixers to do it with just a boom op or worse an intern. This is unacceptable and it follows with a parallel thread about interns. This is a trait that is growing and by removing the extra members of the sound department you undermine it and its value along with the value of a good sound department. Apologies if my sentiments leaked into this comment about timecode buddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisH Posted December 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 OP fixed apologies to anyone I offended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisH Posted December 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 When Chris says they have it backwards I think he means that the Master Units which are the larger, heavier, more expensive part of the system, should not have to be the unit that goes on the camera. Most productions (while not getting into what is "real" production, or a big one or a small one) have the sound mixer as the master timecode source and timecode needs to be distributed wirelessly to the cameras. The cameras should be able to have the smallest, lightest, easiest to mount receiver. I don't know enough about TimeCode Buddy system to truly address this --- cannot the Master unit be with the sound mixer and the very small and compact receivers be on the cameras? Jeff to answer your question the small compact units are transmitters only so by putting them on the cameras you are receiving timecode from the camera not jamming it. And thanks to your wonderful site I have learned that they are planning a compact receiver unit of some sort. I found even more information posted on the Facebook sound mixer group thanks to Mark Haygen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 The timecode buddy way of thinking and product naming is very backwards and confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomBoisseau Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 You are perhaps correct John if my attitude came across too abrasive I apologize. I don't mean to trivialize other types of production sound work, I do some bag bag work in between shows myself. I have also seen a spate of features that should be doing it properly pushing mixers to do it with just a boom op or worse an intern. This is unacceptable and it follows with a parallel thread about interns. This is a trait that is growing and by removing the extra members of the sound department you undermine it and its value along with the value of a good sound department. Apologies if my sentiments leaked into this comment about timecode buddy. Quite the gentleman Chris! My hat is off to you. It's nice to see people being nice, especially here. Merry Christmas. Thanks, Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 The sound cart is the central timecode clock on real productions so it's frustrating to me that you built this system for run and gun news reality and eng. can you make a cheap receiver unit so I can buy a master and put 2-3 cheap recievers on the cameras?" I agree with Chris' sentiments, and I don't see where he puts down people who work on run-n-gun shoots. I bet it would be possible for TCB to make smaller receivers that would jam in this same way. Heck, I could even see a larger rackmount transmitter for carts with double the power (or whatever is legal) to extend the range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Mega Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Little off topic, apologies. Richard Meredith, if you're reading this, I sent you a PM with my new email address. My old hotmail got hacked and was shut down by hotmail. Please contact me via email. Paul Scurrell, if you see this, please pass on message to Richard. Thanks Peter Mega Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bacon AMPS Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Just sent this to timecode buddy. And what was their considered reply? "Hey guys great ideas and system but you got it backwards! I work on feature films and episodic tv. So I would need to buy multiple masters and put them on each camera. The sound cart is the central timecode clock on real productions so it's frustrating to me that you built this system for run and gun news reality and eng. can you make a cheap receiver unit so I can buy a master and put 2-3 cheap recievers on the cameras?" Does the fact that they did it this way annoy anyone else? The idea that cameras are transmitting timecode to me makes me cringe. Granted I don't work in the run and gun environment much, but it bugs me that they have basically designed the system against larger shows. By large shows I mean union shows, large budgets and either film or alexa (unfortunately sometimes red) where the sound mixer is the source of the timecode and there is proper crew ie utility, boom op and mixer and generally two to three cameras each with operator, 1st AC, 2nd AC and a DP over everyone. The cameras don't roll till after the sound mixer rolls and the boom op says speed. I know the eng reality market is getting bigger but I thought that the larger market was still in features and episodic TV, or at least thats what I hope. Well... the assumption that your needs are greater or more valid than those who do not shoot "features and episodic TV" will not be welcomed by many members of this forum. While I do not work on features, I work on episodic TV and have found that the TCB system works extremely successfully (with Alexa, Red etc.). While I agree with you that the naming system employed by Timecode Systems for the TCB units could be better (I would have preferred the 'Master' unit to be called something like the 'Transceiver') I do not agree that they have it "backwards". One relevant point I feel is worth mentioning is that Timecode Systems are marketing the TCB system to a global market and not just the US. My point being that, for example, the UK market (where I am based) works very differently to the Union market that you have Chris - I am not saying better or worse just different. As such, recordists in the UK can sometimes find themselves working on scripted cart-based period dramas followed by an ENG style record-in-the-bag show the next. So the type of gear we require often needs to work well across both genres. In my experience, the shows that require the most demanding timecode setups are often not cart-based (although a 1u mount would be a nice edition to the TCB accessory collection). Your desire for a receiver only TCB unit echoes the wishes of many TCB users including myself. However I am not looking for a cheap solution. There are many cheap timecode solutions out there (discussed at length within this forum) but personally I'm happy to pay for a rock-solid solution. We've covered the issue of cost before in a previous thread but essentially the TCB WIFI units are only marginally more expensive than traditional TC boxes from Ambient and the like which do not have the same feature set so this isn't really an argument in my eyes... but I understand you want cheap! By the fact that you say "The idea that cameras are transmitting timecode to me makes me cringe" I assume you are currently using a TCB system? Have you not considered reconfiguring your setup so that you are transmitting the "master" timecode to the cameras as you so desire? By having a TCB TX (or 'WIFI master' setup as a transmitter) on your cart transmitting the 'master' timecode, you could simply attach a TCB WIFI unit (setup as a receiver) to each of the cameras/digi-slates and you'd have exactly what you want! To be blunt... I think you may have misunderstood the capabilities of the TCB system. Your public apology further down the thread to Timecode Systems is acknowledged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardMeredith Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Greetings from Buddy Towers - great to see our kit out there helping on all sorts of shows - that's exactly what we wanted in that everyone would find a use for a buddy - no matter what sort of production you're working on. To clear up any misunderstanding, and put all your minds at rest - here is the real story - Paul Scurrell - founder of the Buddy does indeed herald from a single camera PSC/ENG background, and the original concept was to design a bullet proof camera to sound timecode link for running RECRUN timecode - hence the transmitter (TX) / wifi Master solution. "TX" on camera and "wifi Master" in sound bag (small unit on camera, and big unit in bag). The name "Master" referring to the fact that it is the "Master" unit in the suite of products, rather than being the unit that inherently generates the master timecode,(which of course it can if you want) After its launch at NAB2012, you may recall The Senator making a comment regarding the size of the wifi Master - in that it has a plethora of professional connectors on the base - internal batteries, a RF transceiver a WiFi transceiver, a nice display, and the most accurate portable internal timecode generator - and all that comes in a size - he also mentioned that he thought the system was well thought out, and the guys behind the system (me being one!) would listen to customer feedback and develop accordingly. Well we have done exactly that, and in response to the requests, I can reveal that there is indeed a mini camera receiver on its way - this will satisfy everyone's desire for a smaller camera mounted unit in the FREERUN single and multicam setups. It is well down the design road, and will be launched at a well known Broadcasting show in April 2013. Do come and see us, as I'm sure there will be some tasty show offers. We are thrilled that all you users out there have adopted our system and Thank You all for your support - we will of course always listen to our customers and try and incorporate all the good ideas that you have. Turning ideas into tangible things is a long hard process but we love the challenge. Look out for an exciting release from MovieSlate too, very soon, which takes the whole logging system on one step further still. For now have the best Christmas, and here's to a busy and prosperous 2013 for everyone involved in recording audio whatever genre of the industry, in whatever part of the world - we are a breed apart! best wishes Richard Meredith - TimeCode Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 I do reality and scripted drama stuff, and 99.9% of the time I am the master clock. If I am not, they are doing record-run and it's just one camera. I found the system odd too that I would have to buy a bunch of $1,000+ "master units" for each camera or slate and one $375 transmitter in my bag or cart. Not just by price, but also by size and function. It sounds like they originally designed the system to be a bunch of what are called Master Units, but then added the transmitter as an additional lower cost product that had the single function. Maybe it is naming that leads to confusion, but the demo video does a good job of sorting that out. I do like the idea of the iOS app because I have plenty of shoots where the note taker(s) has/have to see TC. Telling them to use their iPhone instead of handing them on of my ERXs is appealing. Heck, you could even buy a few refurb iPod touches in case they don't have an iPhone. A small RX only would probably be nice. Handing the Master unit (with some sort of external battery) and maybe a Comtek and a Y-cable to a DSLR shooter is going to get you punched in the nose. I don't know how much size and power consumption is dedicated to the Master Unit's WiFi, but there may be some things they could strip down. If you are throwing it on a camera, right now nothing is smaller than a single ERXTC for TC and mono audio, but it's great to have options! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 ... and there you have it! Thanks for the update Richard! It completely makes sense that it was designed to tackle RECRUN systems, which can be more of a mess than free run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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