r.paterson Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 hello i have a shoot starting tomorrow and just found out they are now using 3x sony ex3's and no lockit boxes have been suplied , is there a problem with ex-3's if you only feed timecode to the camera's and no genlock ie the phantom green flashes in the edit, each camera will be receiving audio hardwired and a hardwired timecode from my 788t. any help appreciated thanks richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Woodcock Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 You don't need Gen Lock unless the cameras are feeding live video to a switcher (to my knowledge) so just Jam throughout the day and you will be fine. Some of the guys here have done 6 camera shoots without Gen Lock I have done a 3 camera shoot without gen lock Regards Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Almalvez Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 recently worked on a show with two ex3s, just re jam throughout the day and you'll be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 As has been said many times here, the cameras will not stay in perfect frame sync with each other or with audio w/o genlock--that's why Sony put that feature on the camera. The timecode you send or don't send to the camera won't affect the sync drift at all--it is just assigning numbers to frames being created under the control of each camera's not very accurate internal clock. The main question given how things get posted today is whether or not it matters in this case. A conversation with the editor or post supe perhaps, re how things have worked out for them in the past? Don't be afraid to ask questions. There are lots of ways to skin this cat anymore, find out their prefs, if only so that you have plausible deniability if they aren't happy with the results later. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Quinn Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Phil + 1 It is only 3 BNC cables it is so little extra work . Genlock job done. Of coarse this assumes that you have set your lockits properly Best John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 What Phil says is correct, but the answer to the original question is not really, unless the cameras are being switched live... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 I prefer to check in with the post dept and see if this matters to them rather than assume that it will not. There are other scenarios than live switch where frame sync can matter, esp if the takes are long. Find out what the expectation is re this. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemmerlinj Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 I believe the manual for these cameras actually states that even after jamming them with Genlock etc. all done the way Sony says that these cameras may lose sync in as quickly as an hour with out a constant ext. source. It may have been an older manual I was reading. Maybe that's been fixed. I would tell production to get sync boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceSound Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 I just did a shoot with two EX3's a couple of days ago. I've been on this show for a bit now and before, drift was a big problem. I spoke to post prior to this recent shoot and they claim that the drift problem was addressed in the newest firmware. As long as post signs off on it, I'm not worried, but I did offer a lockit to them should they change their mind. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan chiles Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 I seem to remember a thread on jw some time ago about someone using EX3s with lockits (not sure if genlocked or not) and that the cameras still drifted away from each other and the audio code.. I just made a mental note to not trust those cameras. I would use a lockit/SBT with both TC and Genlock cabled and if possible do a test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Sorensen Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 I just got off a shoot with two ex3's. They seemed to have a plethora of issues even beyond timecode. Granted they traveled in a plane from LA to Michigan. For whatever reason, we couldn't get either ex3's to receive timecode from the 788t. We ended up using the camera as the master to jam the 788t. This seemed pretty reliable. Even as I re-jammed throughout the day, the camera's were still in sync before I did. Can anyone speak what using the camera as a master means for post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergio Sanmiguel Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 I did a full season (3 months) For a Animal Planet show last year using two EX3's. Only Jammed TC twice a day or when batteries died without proper power down. Assistant Editor was on site and never complained of drifting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanmc Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I dont understand why genlock is not used on every multicam or double system shoot ( where cameras allow and where possible )... Why assume that the clocks are running at the same speed... the boxes are not that expensive . I insist apon this on every set up I am overseeing, and have had 0 drift issues since in post ( and many issues prior to this ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Dean is correct. Once you have more than one camera, you really should genlock for absolute "belt and suspenders" timecode accuracy. Otherwise, the danger is that the leading edge if sync is going to stray a few microseconds one way or the other, rendering the picture a frame ahead or a frame behind. For whatever reason, we couldn't get either ex3's to receive timecode from the 788t. We ended up using the camera as the master to jam the 788t. This seemed pretty reliable. Even as I re-jammed throughout the day, the camera's were still in sync before I did. Can anyone speak what using the camera as a master means for post? My experience is that the cameras will drift more than the sound recorder, especially if it's a rock-solid Ambient or Denecke timecode/sync source. But as long as you stay on top of it, it can work. Ideally, I'd say use a timecode slate just as a fallback for the editor. The manual for the EX3 is pretty self-explanatory: http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/assetDownloadController/PMW-EX3_OM.pdf?path=Asset%20Hierarchy$Professional$SEL-yf-generic-153708$SEL-yf-generic-153753SEL-asset-127526.pdf&id=StepID$SEL-asset-127526$original&dimension=original The jamming from an external source is detailed on pages 134-135, and does specifically advise to use external genlock and timecode. Ideally, you'd put an SB-T or a Lockit box on each camera for the entire day. You could try jamming the cameras, but I'm wary of a lot of industrial camcorders like this (though Sergio above says the EX3 works OK). I know for a fact the more-costly F3 is a piece of crap for timecode accuracy -- it drifts like crazy. One hopes Sony's new F5 (and F55) work better for timecode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanmc Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 We have had serious sync issues using multiple Canon C300s and jamming... until we put some SB-Ts ( Genlocked) on them and our issues were solved. BTW.. we used one of our 788s as master reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I think we can agree that multiples of most any video camera and a sound recorder will not stay in dead sync with each other over many hours w/o some sort of genlock system (box or cable). What many folks discover is that in many post scenarios this doesn't matter, or it doesn't matter enough to do anything about it. I still think it is important to make inquiries about how the post will be done and how much "sync" they want (and will pay for). Anymore the DP's notions of how heavy their camera is being made (or how additionally awkward) affects the argument too. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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