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PG's sound cart project


Paul Graff

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Hello All,

I am a big fan (and regular visitor) of this site since its inception and an occasional poster of late.  Thanks Jeff for an invaluable contribution to our community.  I truly appreciate your initiative and ongoing effort with this discussion group.  A few months ago I decided to build a new sound cart and started looking at other mixers' rigs on the web.  I visited several of you on set, taking pictures and asking questions. 

Well, a busy year of docu mixing, reality supervising/mixing, and occasional scripted gigs ensued and the project largely got put on hold.  I've gotten by okay and I'm actually glad I waited, because I have a much clearer idea now of what will work best for me.  I've seen so many great carts and so many different approaches.  Scott Farr's exhaustive documentation of his cart project here (and on his blog) was met with a lot of interest and appreciation, especially by those who don't get to see other mixers’ carts too often.  While I don't have Scott's web savvy or thirst for posting, I'm going to post some pics of my cart as it comes together and solicit your feedback.

This is the first installment.  I'm happy with the mounting of the 8 411a receivers and the distribution from the UMC-16B.  The shelf below will house a T4 and a T1 IFB transmitters for return feeds to boom ops and a Comtek 216 transmitter.  The Intellix balun will also live here.  Next shelf down is where the recorder will be.  Currently sized for a Deva 5 or 5.8.  A Cantar or a PD606 or 744T could reside here instead.  A million thanks to Phil Palmer for selling me his PSC M8 mixer, which resides on the bottom shelf.  It makes everything a lot easier, smaller, and less power-hungry.  My original plan revolved around a 16 RU shock rack and a Yamaha 01V.  I'll save that story for another time.

The 8 RU rack below houses a drawer for supplies and my DC power sources.  More details on that in my next post.  Also, I rashly bought the “senior vertical sound cart” from Filmtools last year.  It's big and heavy.  I was bummed, but now I have some ideas on how I can make it work.  I will be modifying it next week and will show you the results.  Thanks for reading.

Paul Graff

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Great job w/ the RX mounting.  I guess you probably need to pull some of those out pretty often for doco/bag work and you've made that very simple.  In case you haven't done so already, I'd encourage you to make the whole rack pull-outable, in case you want to play it closer to the set than your cart can be and keep your antenna cables short.  Lucky you w/ the M8--I couldn't find one when I was looking.  PSC will help you keep it working forever, for cheap, if my experience w/ my M6 is any guide.  (They've done a lot of mods for me too.)  How are you handling power distro?  Any thoughts about a computer?

Nice and tidy w/ small footprint.

Philip Perkins

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Good looking cart! The 8 411's fit nicely. I am not familiar with the UMC 16B --- I guess that is an antenna distribution system from Lectrosonics --- looks to be single rack space and AC power only --- is that the case, AC only?

I hope the M8 has improved considerably since its inception. I had a look, and listen, to one of the first ones and it did sound so good to me. Very well thought out features and signal flow, I just had trouble with gain, noise, headroom, etc.

-  Jeff Wexler

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Good looking cart! The 8 411's fit nicely. I am not familiar with the UMC 16B --- I guess that is an antenna distribution system from Lectrosonics --- looks to be single rack space and AC power only --- is that the case, AC only?

I hope the M8 has improved considerably since its inception. I had a look, and listen, to one of the first ones and it did sound so good to me. Very well thought out features and signal flow, I just had trouble with gain, noise, headroom, etc.

-  Jeff Wexler

I remember those teething problems too, but I believe they did work things out--I know a couple of mixers who like them very well (now).  As I recall they were fairly expensive, too.  PSC has generally been great about trying to make it customers happy--even those of us who didn't buy our mixers new.

Philip Perkins

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Good looking cart! The 8 411's fit nicely. I am not familiar with the UMC 16B --- I guess that is an antenna distribution system from Lectrosonics --- looks to be single rack space and AC power only --- is that the case, AC only?

I hope the M8 has improved considerably since its inception. I had a look, and listen, to one of the first ones and it did sound so good to me. Very well thought out features and signal flow, I just had trouble with gain, noise, headroom, etc.

-  Jeff Wexler

The UMC-16B is DC-powered UHF Multi-Coupler and uses <5 watts.  It's distinguished from Lectro's UMC-16A in that it is wide-band [this one is Blocks 21-29; I imagine new ones will be Blocks 18-26] and, like quadboxes and Venues, UMC-16A is narrowband and can only accommodate a two-block range of receivers.

Phil did buy a Cooper 208 v2, so he clearly felt the upgrade was worth the money.  He mentioned to me that he had the gain structure on this M8 modified by Ron at PSC, so I'm sure it's improved from what you listened to.  I will generally run all wireless into it which will provide more flexibility with gain structure as well.  I'm curious what levels people use out of Lectro 411a into their mixers.  I've never used line level input with my Sound Devices mixers; I use mic level input, but keep the level relatively hot out of the Lectro...~25-20 dB. 

I tried to use +5 output from the 411a and put the M8 on line in.  It works to an extent, but the gain is cranked too high, so I will use a similar approach to what I do with my bag rigs.  On another note, the new Zaxcom is actually hot enough to use line in.

Paul

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Great job w/ the RX mounting.  I guess you probably need to pull some of those out pretty often for doco/bag work and you've made that very simple.  -snip-

Philip Perkins

Multi-rig documentary-style reality shows have been my bread and butter the last few years with solo docu/ENG jobs and Union utility day-playing filling the gaps between shows.  I've known I wanted a rack-based cart, but it needs to be easy enough to manage for the 2nd-unit day-playing, lower-tier movies, and commercials I hope to move into.  The massive shock-mounted rack unit is still in the garage and the 01V is still in the closet, but in the world I'm in, no one is sending a truck to my house to pick up my cart and I'm not buying a Sprinter van and a winch!!

I'd originally looked at the rack-mount Lectro multi-couplers that hold 4 receivers, but getting the receivers in and out is a pain. This system is much more flexible.

-snip- In case you haven't done so already, I'd encourage you to make the whole rack pull-outable, in case you want to play it closer to the set than your cart can be and keep your antenna cables short.  -snip-

Philip Perkins

I've thought about this too, even looking at the Aviom system, but I like to keep an eye on the receivers.  When absolutely necessary, the top 12RU rack will be able to be lifted off and carried closer.  This will be viable, power and weight-wise.

-snip- How are you handling power distro?  Any thoughts about a computer?

Give me a few days and I will show you.

Thanks,

Paul

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Lectro receivers operate internally at full gain.  Their output level is then set by way of a passive attenuation network.  Therefore, you'd want to use your mixer's line input and set the Lectros to the highest level your mixer can handle properly (sufficient internal headroom, etc.).

JB

I'm well-aware of this and have always wanted to use line input on mixer, but have not found Lectro's output level adequate.  It's close, but not quite there.  Does it work for you this way?  I've also noticed that those who use Lectros as camera hops use mic level level on the camera.  I have to do this with the old Zaxcom stereoline receiver as well, but I just bought a new one and have used it line level into camera successfully.  The same will hold true if/when I use it as a talent transmitter or for wireless boom.

Paul

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Nice work Paul.  Kinda funny seeing my old M8 being installed in a new home.  I'll be following this thread with great interest.  Looks great.

I've been using the UMC16B for over a year now...with great results.  It allows for my Six Pack and a couple of loose UCR411's to all work off 2 shark fin antennae.  Works great with very little current draw.

~pwp

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I'm well-aware of this and have always wanted to use line input on mixer, but have not found Lectro's output level adequate.  It's close, but not quite there.  Does it work for you this way?  I've also noticed that those who use Lectros as camera hops use mic level level on the camera.  I have to do this with the old Zaxcom stereoline receiver as well, but I just bought a new one and have used it line level into camera successfully.  The same will hold true if/when I use it as a talent transmitter or for wireless boom.

Paul

Didn't mean to tell you something you already know -- sorry.  I've found many people don't know this, so I thought I'd offer it here.

I run Lectro receivers wide open unless there's a reason to do otherwise.  There's plenty of gain on the line inputs to Sound Devices mixers -- never had a problem with that.  I also always run into the line inputs when rigged as a camera hop.  I adjust the limiters on the SD mixer based on how much headroom I need -- about 10-12dB on Betacams and 16dB on pro digital.  I then adjust the modulation on the Lectro transmitters to push them as hard as I can without hitting their limiters.  SD's limiters sound much better than the Lecro ones.  When mixing, I adjust mixer levels to prevent limiting except on infrequent peaks.

This gives me clean sound and the levels I need into the line inputs on most cameras.

JB

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Multi-rig documentary-style reality shows have been my bread and butter the last few years with solo docu/ENG jobs and Union utility day-playing filling the gaps between shows.  I've known I wanted a rack-based cart, but it needs to be easy enough to manage for the 2nd-unit day-playing, lower-tier movies, and commercials I hope to move into.  The massive shock-mounted rack unit is still in the garage and the 01V is still in the closet, but in the world I'm in, no one is sending a truck to my house to pick up my cart and I'm not buying a Sprinter van and a winch!!

I'd originally looked at the rack-mount Lectro multi-couplers that hold 4 receivers, but getting the receivers in and out is a pain. This system is much more flexible.

I've thought about this too, even looking at the Aviom system, but I like to keep an eye on the receivers.  When absolutely necessary, the top 12RU rack will be able to be lifted off and carried closer.  This will be viable, power and weight-wise.

Give me a few days and I will show you.

Thanks,

Paul

Roger on the Lectro multicoupler for me too, as well as the Yamaha and the Sprinter (not in this lifetime...).  I've had gain, limiter, output level, meter and other tweaks done by PSC--they were amazingly game I thought for helping w/ a mixer they don't even make anymore.  They also accommodated my request for direct outs and a "cascade" mix bus input into the M6, even though it was never designed for that.  I use those mods all the time.

I pretty much always use my Lectros (of various vintages) on line level w/ both the SD bag mixers and the PSC.  The PSC has to open up pretty wide to get enough gain out of the older Lectros, but it works.  At mic level, I'd say that the PSC has a bit more gain than I really need--some extra pad often helps.

Good luck w/cart.  All us cart-jocks will be interested to hear how you deal w/ the perennial cart DC issues.

Philip Perkins

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I think you will come to find that the velcro shelfs take up a lot of room which is why I returned the ones I had.

Looking good so far.

You’re right about the thickness of the SKB plastic pull-out shelf.  I got rid of it for the receivers and saved a RU space there.  I like it for the mixer because it provides a bit of shock cushioning and for the shelf above, which will have several small items I will Velcro to it.  I gain some space by not using rack-mount monitors.  Although I like the neat look of the Marshall, I want monitors with integrated TV tuners and I like being able to move them wherever I want on the magic arm.  I will make or find a bracket with two ¼” mounts about 7” apart so I can mount two monitors side-by-side on one magic arm

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  • 2 weeks later...

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Well, my cart is certainly not as elegant as Vin’s nor do I work with his velocity, (hey, the parents have been in town all week on a very rare SoCal visit!)  Anyway, here’s an update.  I’ve done some mods to the cart portion.  I’ve chopped down the top, lowered the handle, and installed mounts for receiver antennas (LPDA x 2), IFB transmit antennas (SNA-600 x 2), Phaseright antenna for Comtek 216, Manfrotto magic arm for video (eventually two monitors on one mount), umbrella, and two boompoles.  I plan to make an antenna bar to mount all transmitting antennas off of one pole (instead of two) on the right side, which will also get a bit more room between the Phaseright and the SNA-600s.  (BTW, the 411a receivers are all in bags or sub-rented through LSC right now.)

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I’ve chosen baby pin mounts to make it easy to throw the umbrella on a C-stand or remote the sharkfins.  The lower 8RU rack is now the same model line as the top rack, which looks nicer.  It also has a 2RU drawer, which is reasonably accessible even when the mixer is pulled out.  Props to Robert Sharman for the idea of using loc-line (modularhose.com) for the antenna “bars”.  Easy to maneuver and aim with the added benefit of not snapping off if they get bumped. (This is the stuff PSC uses for their flexi-arm clamp.)

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The second shelf will have a Deva recorder and a PAL speaker behind to the right.  The third shelf has IFB T4, IFB T1, Comtek M216, PSC Cart Power, and Intelix AVO-V2A2 Balun.  I actually haven’t bought the Balun yet if any of you have ringing endorsements for a different model.  I’ve cut a piece of presentation board which velcroes to the front of this shelf for sides of the scene we are shooting.

I have a few ideas regarding DC power.  I chose/bought a PSC Cart Power; it is compact, flexible and doesn’t lock me in long term to using Sealed Lead Acid batteries as it has no integrated charger.  I do have a 35 AH SLA battery and a Guest #2612A charger.  In addition, I recently bought an item made briefly (I think) and no longer by Aspen called the Powerbag 250.  Here’s a picture:

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Since I own a lot of Li-Ion NP-style batteries, I’ve often wished such an item existed and was thrilled when I found it.  If anyone has familiarity with it, please chime in with any opinions.  My current plan (no pun intended) is to get an AC power conditioner and run the cart off of the SLA batt on a floating charge.  The Powerbag will be standing by to supplement long periods without AC power, to take with should I want to lift off the top rack and have it work off the cart, and if I find that some equipment is happier with its higher voltage (~16v) than the SLA batt.  I think this is a satisfactory solution for now and welcome any feedback.  I still need to finish making my power distribution cables.

Okay, that’s it for now.

Paul

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  • 2 weeks later...

So, the great Catch-22 of projects such as this… It’s been the perfect time to build a new cart since I’ve had all this time off VERSUS What am I thinking??!!.... I am hemorrhaging cash when I am not making any!!  Well, this project might not make much sense financially (at least in the short term), but I sure am enjoying it. 

It’s not about equipment; it’s about preparedness.  I find that having everything set up exactly as I like it and being able to quickly access every tool is one of the most essential things to getting good sound on set.  I definitely found that to be true booming and thirding for other mixers and setting up docu-rigs (with backups of everything) for myself and for others.  One thing the scripted and the unscripted worlds have in common is that time is of the essence, always.  When you think you’re “ready”, then everything changes, you might have only moments to adapt.  Well, that’s my rationale for my obsessive, compulsive, “worst-case-scenario” thinking.

Back to the cart…I’ve completed soldering all the DC powering with a lot of flexibility to power various additional items I will sometimes use.  Floating charge off the SLA battery works well and powers everything essential.  Discrete wireless returns to two [perhaps also discreet] boom ops on ¼ watt IFB’s enable them to each hear only their boom (or whatever mix they prefer) as well as separate or joint PL.  The baluns came in yesterday and work well for audio to video village and up to 3 camera feeds back to me.  The Zerosurge arrives next week to effectively protect me from bad AC.  I’m sticking with the Comtek PR216 instead of buying a basestation and range seems excellent using it with the Phaseright.  Still haven’t decided what I’ll go with for another monitor, but I have some ideas.  Any favorites any of you would like to share?  LSC has one (Camos, I believe) with 2 BNC's in and ability to A/B, but if I can find something for less then $460 it would be nice.

This is “Images of Interest”, so where are the images?  I felt like there were too many images on the last post, so even though, like all sound carts, it will never be “done”, I’m waiting a few more days, when it will be largely done, to post some images.

PG

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check out these low priced monitors www.ikancorp.com (7" - $349.00 list)

I have 2 of the monitors from Ikan and they have worked out very well. Neither has "professional" interface connectors but possibly newer models do have these. So, what I did was what I have done with other monitors is put a small box on the back with proper connectors (BNC's, power switch, 4-pin XLR for DC power, etc.) and connect the appropriate leads from the multi-cable harness that comes with many of these monitors.

-  JW

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If you're looking at 7" monitors...

http://lcd4video.com/lcd_monitor-only.html

I took a chance on this seemingly cheapie and have been very happy.  Same issues as Jeff mentioned re: connectors, my solution was I routed their multi-cable to a racked-up breakout/patch-bay on the cart, so the patch bay handles the brunt of plugging BNCs and XLRs.  Sounds like you're going the balun route, so you'll have different interfacing to do...

What else...the mount is a little funky, that is, there's no 3/8 mounting hole on the bottom...so that requires a couple minutes of creative thinking... If I remember, I'll snap a picture of my solution for that next time I'm at the workshop.

Monitor image quality is good and bright.

my .02

-Brian

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Thanks a lot, Brian (and Jeff and Scott).  Good ideas.  Brian, the monitor I have has that slot mount on the back, in addition to the 1/4" 20 hole on the bottom, which is what I currently use.  Perhaps I could use the slot for mounting both.  Did you find out how you have it mounted?  It looks like it would be a great choice.  At least it is not mini-plug input, and it has two inputs.

Thanks,

PG

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...Brian, the monitor I have has that slot mount on the back....  Did you find out how you have it mounted?

I was at the shop, but didn't have my camera...doh!  Basically I cut down a piece of thin angle aluminum that was scrap left from a box.  So it's an L-shaped bracket that slides into the slot.  I gave the long part of the L a slight curve for tension.  The bottom of the L is about  1.5 inches long, and it's nut-and-bolted onto LCD4Video's camera shoe, which is a very nice lightweight ball-and-socket joint, AND which has a 1/4-20 threaded hole in the bottom.

Confused yet?  It's actually simple and secure.  Should you need to remove the monitor for any reason, it just slides off the L.

A picture for a thousand words...

I'm headed off on a job (without the cart), won't be able to snap you a photo till Saturday.  You seem pretty crafty, I'm sure you'd find a solution easily.

The other thing worth mentioning is that their slotted plate is easily replaceable with something of your own design, with all the mounting needs you require.  It's just 6 screws holding it into the monitor.

Brianwi

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Paul,

Long time no talk. Hope you are well. 

Monitors have been a big problem for me as well but for the time being I am content.  I too have (am) looking for a good monitor(s) with tuners but don't want to spend thousands of dollars.  I did purchase the Marshall 7" with tuner ASL7000. The nice thing about it besides a nice picture is that it has a US tuner rather than a foreign tuner where you have to tune it every time you use it.  I saw B&H is selling them for $429 and you could always try Coffey and LSC as well.

I have had my share of the Lilliput and other $250 monitors with foreign tuners.  Too bad they don't make the Digimedia monitors anymore, those were great!

Take care,

Steve

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I was at the shop, but didn't have my camera...doh!  Basically I cut down a piece of thin angle aluminum that was scrap left from a box.  So it's an L-shaped bracket that slides into the slot.  I gave the long part of the L a slight curve for tension.  The bottom of the L is about  1.5 inches long, and it's nut-and-bolted onto LCD4Video's camera shoe, which is a very nice lightweight ball-and-socket joint, AND which has a 1/4-20 threaded hole in the bottom.

Confused yet?  It's actually simple and secure.  Should you need to remove the monitor for any reason, it just slides off the L.

A picture for a thousand words...

I'm headed off on a job (without the cart), won't be able to snap you a photo till Saturday.  You seem pretty crafty, I'm sure you'd find a solution easily.

The other thing worth mentioning is that their slotted plate is easily replaceable with something of your own design, with all the mounting needs you require.  It's just 6 screws holding it into the monitor.

Brianwi

Actually, that's pretty clear.  This seems like a good deal with RCA and BNC inputs for A/B operation.  Thanks

Paul,

Long time no talk. Hope you are well. 

Monitors have been a big problem for me as well but for the time being I am content.  I too have (am) looking for a good monitor(s) with tuners but don't want to spend thousands of dollars.  I did purchase the Marshall 7" with tuner ASL7000. The nice thing about it besides a nice picture is that it has a US tuner rather than a foreign tuner where you have to tune it every time you use it.  I saw B&H is selling them for $429 and you could always try Coffey and LSC as well.

I have had my share of the Lilliput and other $250 monitors with foreign tuners.  Too bad they don't make the Digimedia monitors anymore, those were great!

Take care,

Steve

Hey Steve.  We'll talk soon.  Nice to know you're on this forum.  Went back to buy the Digimedia they had on consignment at Coffey and it had been sold.  I've heard folks liked them a lot. 

On another note, I have one of Wolf's spy transmitters I used to use as a boom op to send a feed to a little AA-powered monitor I kept on a flexi-arm nearby.  It is not exactly ON a channel, so the TV has to scan to get it.  The ones that count through channels (most of these) won't find it.  Do any of these 7" monitors scan for channels.  Not a big deal and actually could be a pain because that probably would mean it had no channel memory. Hmmm... 

PG

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