How important is it to be a boom op before becoming a mixer?

[old school]

Way back in year one of jwsound I started a similar topic but I cannot find it now. This is really directed at those working in feature film and TV more than OMB or reality. 

Is it important to be a 3rd, then boom op, then a mixer? Also should one always more up to mixer after stints at 3rd n Boom? The answer is depends but I'm curious as to what others think. Our host was never a boom op. His boom op/partner has never really been a full time mixer. I got the idea for this topic from Simons great words about his crew and how important that is to the whole gig. The Senator also said this after quoting Simon.....

 

" Let us also consider that it does not matter how good a Production
Sound Mixer is,if the microphone is in the wrong place in the first
place there is nothing we can do on the faders to make it sound
'better'.  Good sound begins with the miking and the reputation a
Production Sound Mixer has for getting great dialogue is without doubt a
collaborative effort with our Boom Op's. "

This is what I tell my students, and I add that I believe the Boomer has the more critical job!  As a mixer who did not come up from booming, I am completely dependent on good boom operating!

 

All us mixers are. I too believe the front line Boom Op has the key job in the chain. It probably comes as no surprise I came up the old school Hollywood way from Cable Man, to Boom Man, to Mixer. 

CrewC

 

[Mirror]

To be a good mixer you have to be a problem solver.  Most sound problems begin before the sound gets to the mix board.  If you have no experience on the other side of the sound cart how are you going to solve those problems?  A monkey can do what a mixer does 90% of the time, but when the SHTF you had better have some tricks up your sleeve.  You learn those tricks by years of being a boom op working for a lot of different mixers.

 

BTW, a good boom man will always work more then a mixer.

[old school]

All true mirror. I see and would have suspected you would believe this way considering your career, but how do you explain the Jeff Wexler's, Jim Webb's, Keith Wester's, RVD's and many others who are good at mixing and problem solving.

CrewC

[studiomprd]

Though I was never a boomer (but I slept in a Holiday Inn)... and, yes, I did do some booming, too), I did some SUT (UST?) time and felt it was hugely valuable, and irreplaceable;  in fact much more valuable than working as mixer or boomer on POS productions...

I came from Radio to television (and recording studios, and PA sound systems) to film (movie) mixing in most of its flavors (doc, commercial, shorts, episodic/MOW/feature length films and movies..

That path also had a lot of value and relevance.

just as I believe movie-makers (Directors) should not start at the top, and really need to get some experience on proper movies before becoming Producer/Director/Writer/Editor/DP/Star Auters....

Some really great boomers never "move up"... while others do and become excellent PSM's...

Edited February 11, 2013 by studiomprd

[Mirror]

All true mirror. I see and would have suspected you would believe this way considering your career, but how do you explain the Jeff Wexler's, Jim Webb's, Keith Wester's, RVD's and many others who are good at mixing and problem solving.

CrewC

 

I suspect they had really good boom guys they learned from.

[studiomprd]

"I suspect they had really good boom guys they learned from. "

I know they did!

[Mirror]

Though I was never a boomer (but I slept in a Holiday Inn)... and, yes, I did do some booming, too), I did some SUT (UTS?) time and felt it was hugely valuable, and irreplaceable;  in fact much more valuable than working as mixer or boomer on POS productions...

I came from Radio to television (and recording studios, and PA sound systems) to film (movie) mixing in most of its flavors (doc, commercial, shorts, episodic/MOW/feature length films and movies..

That path also had a lot of value and relevance.

just as I believe movie-makers (Directors) should not start at the top, and really need to get some experience on proper movies before becoming Producer/Director/Writer/Editor/DP/Star Auters....

Some really great boomers never "move up"... while others do and become excellent PSM's...

 

Forgive my ignorance, but what is SUT

[studiomprd]

" what is SUT "

SUT Sound Utility Technician...  or is it UST ?

[Michael Miramontes]

I guess you can always be a bag mixer and be forced to learn both. 

 

But, before most start to chime in with "you can't do a great job booming/mixing from a bag because one aspect will suffer" then I would say you are absolutely right. Unfortunately, productions these days think a sound mixer is a one man team.

 

I'm sorry, let me qualify what I mean when I say productions. "The productions" most people get hired for when starting out (low/no budget type stuff) are usually non-union documentary/commercial/reality type gigs which only budget one person to handle their sound needs. 

[RPSharman]

I wasn't a utility guy or boom op for all that long.  Just a few years, I think.  Here's what I learned...

 

As a utility guy I would watch the mixer mix and listen to the results.  Different mixers had different techniques, and watching and listening helped me to decided which techniques I would try when faced with similar circumstances.  I also watched boom operators, and listened to the results, and listened when the mixer would turn to me and say, "Wow.  Isn't he great", or "Holy shit!  Where's the microphone?  What the hell is he doing?", etc.  I also saw when gear failed, or was configured oddly, etc.  That gave me great insight as to what type of setup I wanted, and what sort of gear I wanted to buy.

 

As a boom operator... well let's say it wasn't until I was transitioning to mixing, and really began to listen critically to what the boom operator was doing for me as a mixer, that I became any good as a boom operator.  I also had the unique opportunity to work with a few of the best in the business, and some other less experienced folks, and it really opened my eyes (and ears).  Let's face it, as others have repeated again and again, if the mic is in the wrong place, it doesn't matter how good the mixer is.  And yes, "A monkey can do what a mixer does 90% of the time."  But we are not paid for that 90%.  We are paid for the 10%.  And the better we are at the job, the better that 10% sounds.

 

While it is quite clear that there are mixers out there who have succeeded in quality and in career, without having ever been anywhere but the chair, I would think that in the current production environment, people without any exposure to "how it's done" are probably at a big disadvantage in terms of producing quality work.  That's not to say they won't succeed anyway.

 

Robert

[Ian Thomson]

I enjoy the challenges of booming more than the detailed listening and fader-sliding of a mixer; hopefully I'll be able to continue to boom as my body ages less than gracefully

 

Ian

 

P.S. - a Boom Op having done some kind of mixing, will allow for greater empathy with those who choose to shoulder the weight of responsibility for the on-set sound. (hey, how come you can't magically mix those 12 radios/boom/plants I set up?)

 

and a mixer likely has a greater appreciation for dealing with the BS from other departments if they've spent some time on-set, booming.

[Philip Perkins]

I was a boom op who moved to mixing almost right away.  Part of why was economic, part was opportunity and who I knew, and part was skill and talent.  I learned WHOLE lot from a couple of my boom ops, who, among other things, showed me that I really hadn't been a very good boomist, at least compared to them.  The mixer has to have the whole sound/sync/camera/post chain in mind all the time, and has to design how the issue of the project at hand will be solved.  This may involve some serious diplomatic skills, it also may involve a talent for fitting one piece of sound with another in a pleasing way--ie an ear for what sounds good, both live in your cans and later in post.  Being a really great drama boom op is a whole other skill--of being able to memorize lots of dialog easily and accurately (like an actor), thinking like an actor to anticipate what they will do, dancing around lights, shadows obstructions and playing the mic pattern to make the recording work with a minimum of unwanted BG noise.  Then there is the physical part.  Being tall helps.  Being really strong helps.  And athletic grace is very welcome.  So I'd say that while it is informative to have been a boom op before becoming a mixer, it isn't a necessity....

 

philp

[Marc Wielage]

I was a boom op who moved to mixing almost right away.  Part of why was economic, part was opportunity and who I knew, and part was skill and talent.  I learned WHOLE lot from a couple of my boom ops, who, among other things, showed me that I really hadn't been a very good boomist, at least compared to them.

 

Yep, I hear you there. I made a couple of weird career jumps: I moved from tape op to colorist in one month, when that's normally something that took a few years to do. I was just lucky and in the right place at the right time.

 

And for sound, I worked in radio for several years as a teenager, and have spent a lifetime screwing around with music recording, plus worked as a VO engineer for a couple of years way back when. All of this has taught me to have huge respect for anybody who booms for me, because I absolutely understand the problems they suffer and the pressure they have to work with, particularly in being the on-set representative of the sound department. I find in addition to having good booming skills, they also have to understand lighting, balance the camera department's needs vs. ours, and make a tactful (but strong) case when we're put in a compromising position.

 

No way would I ever want to hire a boom op who's as inept as I am at booming. As I often say, "I'm a short guy with bad shoulders, so I'm the last guy who should be booming." I can do it, but it ain't ideal.  

[Joshua Anderson]

We, as production mixers, would be no where without such dedicated souls as the previously mentioned few, and they deserve to be recognized. We offer Lifetime Achievement Awards to production mixers, and re-recording mixers, but no recognition for our fellow workers without whom are work would not receive the recognition that it does. I don't think they need a whole night or a special dinner, but they do deserve some recognition for their service to us as mixers, again and as always in my opinion.

I can only imagine their beaming faces as they receive their awards, finally being recognized from the shadows where their work is done.

One good place to start would be to include the entire production sound team in the award.

I'm sure I'm not the first, when our publicity person was coordinating our show's Emmy submission last year, I tried to include my team. But the response is "mixers only". For the CAS awards, it's a written application without a spot for recognizing the entire sound team.

The sound of a show depends on help from other departments (locations, electrics, wardrobe, grips, props, actors...). But for our awards we can't even get to the point of officially thanking the rest of our own crews.

Josh

[old school]

I sincerely hope the craft of Boom Op never goes away or becomes a lesser job in the eyes of others. It is a wonderful knowledge and skill to have and practice. As important as radio mics have become as tools, I count on the boom mic the majority of the time. RVD mentioned some of the great feature boom ops from our time. None of these guys ever moved up even though they could have. I think there is nothing wrong with being a journeyman Boom Op, in fact that was my game plan for many years. Nothing better than booming a shot, scene, movie. A good Boom Op will work more than most mixers ever will. My hat's alway off and I will forever be indebted to the Boomers I've had the pleasure to work with. Now the Utility position is to my mind an entry level job where you learn everything about the job of sound recording for picture and then make your way into the position you want, mixer or boom. I've known some lifetime 3rd's who work at the top of the game and are happy but for me it was all about the learning to get to the next level.

CrewC

[Michael Miramontes]

With all due respect to you Michael, booming and mixing wireless microphones at the same time, diverts your attention to the point where one of the two must suffer, if you're truly focusing on one of the two.  If you have both hands on a boom pole and are focused on microphone position and cueing, then how are you possibly mixing the four radio mics with any focus, and vice versa, if you're focused on mixing the four radios, then your boom technique is suffering.  So you set your levels for the radios and try to focus on booming, and while two hands are on the boom, there are no hands on the dials.  

RVD, you are absolutely right about this. This is why when I'm asked to boom and mix any more then a few channels I tell production that something is going to suffer and that post will may need to remix the tracks since I can't keep my hands in the air and mix at the same time. 

 

The unfortunate reality is that the days of starting off as a boom op under an established mixer are long gone, in my opinion. I've seen way too many noobies post their "please take me under your wing" thread on here and have RARELY seen anyone reply or take them up on their offer. You are also right in that this industry has been changing and I think it is partially due to technology being easily available to anyone. I believe what ends up happening is that the person wanting to get into this field buys some affordable/beginner type gear and starts working on low/no budget gigs since the path to booming for a mixer has been closed off for some time now. 

 

On the other hand I can totally understand why an established mixer is leery to take on an unproven boom op. At that level the stakes are so high that having someone screw it up for you will in essence tarnish your reputation. So, I guess its a catch 22.

[Michael Miramontes]

I sincerely hope the craft of Boom Op never goes away or becomes a lesser job in the eyes of others. It is a wonderful knowledge and skill to have and practice. As important as radio mics have become as tools, I count on the boom mic the majority of the time. RVD mentioned some of the great feature boom ops from our time. None of these guys ever moved up even though they could have. I think there is nothing wrong with being a journeyman Boom Op, in fact that was my game plan for many years. Nothing better than booming a shot, scene, movie. A good Boom Op will work more than most mixers ever will. My hat's alway off and I will forever be indebted to the Boomers I've had the pleasure to work with. Now the Utility position is to my mind an entry level job where you learn everything about the job of sound recording for picture and then make your way into the position you want, mixer or boom. I've known some lifetime 3rd's who work at the top of the game and are happy but for me it was all about the learning to get to the next level.

CrewC

Hey Crew,

 

how does one become a utility for someone such as yourself?

[atheisticmystic]

Hey Crew,

 

how does one become a utility for someone such as yourself?

 

"somehow"

[old school]

Somehow indeed.

Not sure my history is relevant any longer but I came out of film school with the intention of becoming an editor. I got a job as an assistant editor at a small house that did educational films. When they shot stuff I also did the sound. That lead to other sound mixing gigs as a OMB. I wanted to do films so I knocked on doors and landed a boom op gig on a B Movie. That lead to other then better boom gigs. I got in the Union and got even beter Boom Op jobs. I wanted to get into the big leagues and was offered a 3rd man gig by our host JW and went about learning the craft all over again. After a few years I moved back up to Booming and had a good run at that level. After having children I wanted to stay home and I moved up to Mixing in the Commercial field so I've been all over the place in the sound world. My advise is to knock/text on doors. Meet and know the community and be willing to get in on the bottom. A tier low budget union gig or non union out of towner will teach you a boat load. It takes years to get anywhere in the show and life so be sure it is what you want to do in life. Best of luck.

BTW to all out there, Michael has worked for some I know and I've heard good feedback about him. Just saying...

CrewC

[johnpaul215]

Definitely depends. 

I am by no means saying it's the right way to do it, but I was a PA on one film while in college (that my buddy made), then 8 years later mixed a micro-mini budget one. The PA job gave me some basic idea about how sets work, and mostly what NOT to do. Before the mixing job, I had spent 14 years part-time mixing in a college radio station. A lot of what we did when I started were public affairs discussions. Round table discussion and maybe a call in guest. That was all recorded live, mixed down to one or two tracks. We also did a lot of interviews and live bands. In that sense I had years of experience mixing down to one or two tracks without a script, and problem solving unseen issues. I also knew how to do basic service on most of our gear. 

 

I would say being a PA then utility is the foundation of how sets work (and specifically the sound department), but being a great boom op and being a great mixer are so different that I could absolutely see somebody being good at one or the other, but not both. It probably helps to understand the jobs in the department by doing them, but I wouldn't see how years of being a boom op specifically sets you up to mix. Sure, there are benefits to being around a great mixer that has years/decades of wisdom, but really the boom op is on set near the camera, and the utility spends more time at the cart, right?  

 

A great boom op is definitely undervalued by a lot of people. Hey, these days post can redo our mix from the iso tracks, but the boom track is all the work of the boom op. If they want the production dialog, it's *probably* their work all over it. I know I have done scripted work where I had a Lectro Venue on the cart and was ready to wire at least all the key players, but 90% of the film is the boom. The lavs came into play for a super wide shot, or when one person is way off in the background and delivers a line that can't be boomed (i never get 2 boom ops). Fortunately I worked with producers that are in the loop enough with post that they are the ones that told me about the post sound process, and how the boom was the majority of the film. 

[Alexander Burstein]

In response to Michael about how the days of a boom op learning under an experienced mixer are gone, i say this...

I think it's more about networking and meeting people in person. The common posts we've seen here about "giving an opportunity" rely heavily on the beginners to make a good impression. and by beginners would it be fair to say less than 5 years experience? I think anyone that gets taken under an experienced mixers wing prior to getting into the union is quite lucky for the opportunity. I've had experienced mixers explain to me that joining the union is like earning your stripes. Once in, you've shown to the community that you've put the time and dedication in. Also that you've been around long enough to 'probably' develop some skills. Once at that point, I believe by networking, eligibility, and luck play key roles in working for experienced mixers.

I would jump at any opportunity to work for another mixer here, but I feel as though i'm expected to prove myself first. Which i'm entirely okay with. Along the way I get to learn new things. Just the other day I had an opportunity to OMB a shouting scene between 2 characters. As a boom operator I know to give someone yelling more air so the mixer does not have to gain down as much on his end, making it sound less natural, but not being able to see the levels physically, how as a boom operator do I know how much space to give? My headphone level could distort what I "think" is the correct distance. So seeing the levels myself while booming and adjusting as they screamed louder has added one more piece of knowledge for me as a boom operator.

To bring it round full circle...For myself, I needed to mix (from a bag mostly) in order to become a boom operator. It gave me insight into what I needed and wanted from a good boom op, as well as taught me valuable skills such as riding the frameline tightly, coming up with practical solutions on set. (I believe that everyone in the sound department can contribute to this, even though the mixer has final say. I've been saved by some great ideas by my boom op and utility) as well as many more.

But i started out as a boom operator, and needed to do so in order to learn a lot of the basics. Starting out as a PA isn't a bad way to learn things too.

Alexander

[Joshua Anderson]

I also understand that it's the "mixer" that gets the job and hires the crew, so the crew on any given production is a reflection of the mixer and therefore the "hardware," of the awards is given to the mixer, and with the CAS awards, a document is sent to the boom operator and utility for their contribution on the recognized project, that is worthy of framing.

There's a saying I learned when I was working as a utility that comes to mind: "The boom operator is responsible for getting good sound, the mixer is responsible for getting the next job." That can go a many different ways in interpretation, of course, but your post reminded me of it.

I like your idea, Rich, and Randy (whom I only worked with so briefly it could be described as a nanosecond in his career) is a great example of a candidate for it.

But lifetime achievements are just that: an overview that takes a career into perspective and wouldn't possibly be awarded each year. But there are plenty of yearly awards that make no mention of the entire sound team. I'm sure the certificates for boom operators and utilities are a nice gesture, but I still think the basic recognition, award, and hardware are all a little too skewed towards the mixer. I'd like to think I'm a good mixer but I run with a great team. That's how we make our show sound good (and I'm biased here on that point - or as another old saying goes: "We fooled 'em again").

Josh

[Joshua Anderson]

how does one become a utility for someone such as yourself?

Do it for your friends.

When I was working solely in the non-union world, I would boom for other mixer friends. It helped me learn things they were doing. This was when the alternatives to boom ops for my friends were unknown people who may have little to no training.

In New York, you can't play both sides of the union fence. But I still occasionally pick up a day for a friend on union jobs.

Josh

[Tim M]

I sincerely hope the craft of Boom Op never goes away or becomes a lesser job in the eyes of others. It is a wonderful knowledge and skill to have and practice. As important as radio mics have become as tools, I count on the boom mic the majority of the time. RVD mentioned some of the great feature boom ops from our time. None of these guys ever moved up even though they could have. I think there is nothing wrong with being a journeyman Boom Op, in fact that was my game plan for many years. Nothing better than booming a shot, scene, movie. A good Boom Op will work more than most mixers ever will. My hat's alway off and I will forever be indebted to the Boomers I've had the pleasure to work with. Now the Utility position is to my mind an entry level job where you learn everything about the job of sound recording for picture and then make your way into the position you want, mixer or boom. I've known some lifetime 3rd's who work at the top of the game and are happy but for me it was all about the learning to get to the next level.

CrewC

How long do boomers last though...feel like I'm talking about baby boomers...but really have they shown to last as long as mixers can? The physical abuse in awkward and unnatural positions seem like that career path would be short...and since one very rarely hears of boomers, and that most of the magazines on the subject feature and older mixer and younger looking boomers...it is a viable question. Although a good boomer may work more...is there more longevity and ultimately monetary incentive to be a mixer?

[Jeff Wexler]

The truly great "career" boom operators can and do have a long and prosperous career. By career boom operator, I mean those who could have easily "moved up" to sound mixer position, made more money, less wear and tear on the body physically, but chose to continue doing what they do best, providing the unquestionably vital part of the production sound recording team. I'm sure that most sound mixers who have had long careers are also thankful that there are people who have made this choice and didn't jump at the first opportunity to move up. Thankful not because we don't want someone taking our job away but thankful that the talent and creative efforts necessary for boom work has not been taken away. Where would I be in my career today if Don Coufal had decided many years ago that he wanted to be a sound mixer, not a boom operator. I have no doubt that Don would have made a fine mixer, but who would Don have found to boom? As a team, Don and I have recorded some of the best sound ever and have worked on and contributed to a lot of really great movies. Boom work is physically demanding, no question there, and many boom operators are forced to move up and start mixing because of injuries, physical problems and so forth, this is a fact of our working life. But to assume that boom operating is a short career path with lots of turnover is just not the case. When I get my next movie, Don Coufal will have been booming for 40 years, 35 of those have been working with me. I hope to be starting our 60th movie together very soon!