Mix Track

[Zack]

Depends on what post wants really, play the part of being able to do both however do what the boss wants, not what you want.  I for one do a mono mix track for a cooking show I do on the road because there is no "sound post" for them to sort and remix the ISO's I also record.  What I mix on location is 90% of the actual final audio... which I love to do for its challenge, professionalism, and authenticity.  I would imagine that most mixers working on features and episodic shows mix down to a mono as well for many reasons,  I do for features I work on.  Working out of the bag with large counts of input sources obviously make mixing physically impossible at times (but not always), with production willingly able to afford a good post sound editor to sync/edit ISO tracks that come from location, it can be easier on yourself to just be "tracking" on location rather than stressing about mixing.... since shows like reality don't necessarily have a script to go along with.  Just because you're expected to "track" instead of "mix" doesn't mean you can't still create a mix track for your own skill honing ... they don't have to know or receive it if you choose.

[mikeguarino]

My mix tracks always sound the best. I sometimes mute lav's that aren't working so post is stuck with my beautiful sounding booms.

[Denielle]

I am told that the boom and lavs do not match because of the distance... So, mixing a mono track with boom and lavs is a huge problem. I seem to remember a thread about this, but cannot remember the details. Is this, in fact, a problem? Is it better to do a mix L/R?

[studiomprd]

" post is stuck with "

not, IMHO a good way to work...

I prefer the "give the client what 'they' ask for" approach...

 

" mixing a mono track with boom and lavs is a huge problem. "

yes discussed B4,  and only a huge problem if 'they' either don't know what 'they' are doing, or if 'they' make it a huge problem!

 

 

" Is it better to do a mix L/R? "

typically NO, as we don't know during production what the spatial relationships will be.

often if two tracks are available (like on a camcorder) we go back to "what the client wants".

[RPSharman]

I am told that the boom and lavs do not match because of the distance... So, mixing a mono track with boom and lavs is a huge problem. I seem to remember a thread about this, but cannot remember the details. Is this, in fact, a problem? Is it better to do a mix L/R?

Once again, I'm talking about my narrative work here, but booms and wires can be mixed together to a nice end result. Obviously a lav buried in a tie isn't going to sonically match a boom a 18" overhead, and there can be delay issues in a big wide. But I have watched many mixers successfully mix booms and wires together within a shot/scene, making for a nice mix which matches the room and the picture. This is what I try to do.

It is rare to have a boom overhead and a lav open at the same time, but booming a scene while filling it in with a few lavs here and there is not uncommon.

This is what Senator means when he says it takes years of experience to get years of experience. I like to feel like I get it right most of the time, but once in a while I'll have an oops without another take to fix it. I write an apology "bad mix - please remix with ISOs- sorry" on the report, and try to get it right next time.

There are no rules. Only what sounds good and what doesn't. And that is subjective. I have delivered mixes I love only to have them remixed to something I hate. But I have also had stuff remixed to perfection, given that they have more than a couple of takes to get it right.

Robert

[Simon Hayes]

Mix Track for the picture editor to use in Avid.

 

ISO Tracks for the Dialogue Editor to use when the Sound Post starts months down the line.

 

Sound Sheets to express the 'ingredients' of the mix track to the dialogue editor so he/she knows what the Production Sound Mixer 

thought were the best options on the set.

[ebranting]

I have watched many mixers successfully mix booms and wires together within a shot/scene, making for a nice mix which matches the room and the picture. This is what I try to do.

 

+1 to this!

 

I'm relatively new at mixing narrative (versus recording and delivering ISOs), but the last film I did I had some great success mixing lav & boom together when both were on the same character. By no means did I have them both open all the way! I can remember a few scenarios when we were on tight shots where the actor would go from a normal speaking voice to a whisper; the normal speaking voice was captured with boom and just a hint of lav (-20dB down or more) but when he started whispering I bumped the lav up significantly. Since his tonal quality changed it helped to make the transition from boom to lav pretty smooth. I didn't find phasing to be an issue with this kind of thing either.

 

Unless they tell you not to deliver a mix, or they are demanding you do 800 things at once, why not give as solid a mix as possible?

[Jim Rillie]

Mix Track for the picture editor to use in Avid.

 

ISO Tracks for the Dialogue Editor to use when the Sound Post starts months down the line.

 

Sound Sheets to express the 'ingredients' of the mix track to the dialogue editor so he/she knows what the Production Sound Mixer 

thought were the best options on the set.

Thank you Simon, for putting it so succinctly. That is exactly the way i, and the posties I provide tracks for, work. These days mostly for dramatic TV series.

Denielle, this is the common workflow for drama in this day and age. So, yes a mix does matter for parts of the post process.

 

Regards,

 

Jim Rillie

[johnpaul215]

in my experiences:

narrative work from a cart... definitely mix. They use the mix for a lot of the final product as long as it's good. 

Reality/doc bag work... it depends. some shows will pick apart the tracks to find any hidden gems, and just remix it. Your "mixing" is for IFB and maybe scratch audio. Some reality shows will use your mix (hopefully on the camera) as much as possible and want you to put some effort in the mix. 

[mikeguarino]

I also mix booms and wires and they sound great together with good use of faders and eq. its called "sound mixing" after all isnt it?

[Max Hirtenstein]

what Simon said. rule #1 of dialogue editing is don't mix 2 or more sources of the same dialogue. I like to do a mono mix for picture editorial to use.

[old school]

I'd be out of business if I didn't turn in a mix track for the commercials I work on. As a basic rule I mix a track or 2, and then ISO the elements used in the mix. Mostly they use the mix but they have the option of both.

CrewC

[RPSharman]

what Simon said. rule #1 of dialogue editing is don't mix 2 or more sources of the same dialogue. I like to do a mono mix for picture editorial to use.

Then why do we bother on set? If I have a wide shot or unboomable walk and talk, I often keep both mics open to add some "perspective" and to help balance the BG in the mix. If I did a hard fade, then the BG might shift and/or the mics would sound too present for my liking.

Are you saying to NEVER have two mics open in proximity of delivered dialog? That seems very concrete and sertainly not what I learned from watching many good PSMs mix before moving up myself.

Robert

[Philip Perkins]

Here's a postie saying "Send me that mix track!"  If you can make the scene work then why not.  The editors I know like the idea of ISOs but don't really want to deal with them at all while they are trying to figure out the picture cut --yikes-- so much extra busy work.  The location soundie's mix is invaluable here, as it also is for the innumerable dailies, temp etc etc uses that come up as the project moves along.   It seems to me that an editor who DOESN'T want a mix track is someone who isn't cutting anything very complex, or is used to getting only 2 or 3 isos max.  Many projects go thru huge numbers of variant edits as they go, dragging a large number of isos along clutters up their time line and makes the process slower.  Besides--as a location soundie, you have to make some kind of mix to be able to hear what you are recording--you can't be in solo all the time.  You are making a mix, so record it and pass it on.  

 

philp

[Denielle]

I am also interested in why there are conflicting opinions on mixing two sources of audio. That is what I find confusing. I agree in recording a mix track... Though, it seems to me a L and R may be optimal, keeping boom on one and lavs on the other... That is where I am still most unsure, as there seems to be two conflicting sides. Unfortunately, none of these points have turned my friend into a believer. But, I appreciate all of the insight. It makes me feel more confident that I am not doing something that is irrelevant or outdated.

[Whit Norris]

Mix Track for the picture editor to use in Avid.

 

ISO Tracks for the Dialogue Editor to use when the Sound Post starts months down the line.

 

Sound Sheets to express the 'ingredients' of the mix track to the dialogue editor so he/she knows what the Production Sound Mixer 

thought were the best options on the set.

+1 Simon

The picture editor uses the mix.

 

Whit

[Michael P Clark]

I mix multiple mics all the time. Several open, maybe not all the way, but "open" none the less. And 100% of my mix track get's used unless noticeable phasing occurs, and the dialog editor fixes it for me. At least that's what I'm told. Sometimes having another wire cracked open, depending on location to other actor, can help open up another actors wire, and balance the mix more evenly, than if I shut down the wire completely and let only one wire play. Also, I always have a bit of boom playing in the mix for room and air, depending on placement. Often times choreographing with the boom op and wires to avoid phasing artifacts. Having to go into ISO's to edit is time consuming, and if you can nail the mix, editors love you, and executives love you, and time gets saved to concentrate on more pressing issues.

 

Mix it!

[Philip Perkins]

I am also interested in why there are conflicting opinions on mixing two sources of audio. That is what I find confusing. I agree in recording a mix track... Though, it seems to me a L and R may be optimal, keeping boom on one and lavs on the other... That is where I am still most unsure, as there seems to be two conflicting sides. Unfortunately, none of these points have turned my friend into a believer. But, I appreciate all of the insight. It makes me feel more confident that I am not doing something that is irrelevant or outdated.

That technique is controversial here @ JW, with the drama folks (mostly) believing in a single mono mix+ isos, and other folks in other parts of the field either preferring (or being instructed to make) split boom/lav mixes (+ isos).  For me it's usually been down to what the client wants, and on my dinky jobs they almost always like/specify the split thing.

 

Re mixing two sources of audio....well, yes, that's what mixing is--taking multiple sources and combining them into a new coherent and pleasing sound mass.   I have had some discussions with editors who thought the all-iso way, besides my suspicions of megalomania on their part I also wondered if they were really speaking for the whole production, for the reasons given above re: efficiency.   For me, it's really tough to know if a set of iso channels are going to work as a mix at any point unless I at least make a monitor mix live on the set.  At that point it seems dumb to not record what I'm hearing.   Your friend is really cutting complex projects while dragging 12 chan of isos along.....wow, really BIG monitors.....

 

philp

[RPSharman]

I am also interested in why there are conflicting opinions on mixing two sources of audio. That is what I find confusing. I agree in recording a mix track... Though, it seems to me a L and R may be optimal, keeping boom on one and lavs on the other... That is where I am still most unsure, as there seems to be two conflicting sides. Unfortunately, none of these points have turned my friend into a believer. But, I appreciate all of the insight. It makes me feel more confident that I am not doing something that is irrelevant or outdated.

 

Denielle,

 

I think you'll find most people here, who routinely mix full-crew, full-budget, narrative work, are delivering a mono mix and ISO tracks.  Simon Hayes recently described his method of a L/R mix, but it was not "boom L - lavs R".  It was a well thought out delivery of separated tracks, which I personally couldn't pull of, but one which was very common in the DAT days and is much less common now. But there are still some mixers who mix this way, and it's completely valid.  It's a method which works well for Simon and his editors, and who are we to argue with Academy Award winning Simon Hayes.  But I couldn't do it if I tried, so I'll stick to what I am comfortable doing.

 

It is common to split boom/lav in non-narrative work.

 

You still haven't shared if your friend does narrative work in the method you describe.  If so, I think you'll discover it is the exception, and he/she is in perhaps a very small group.

 

Robert

[Denielle]

I, personally, like the way wires and boom mix sometimes. It can sound very rich and nice... But the boom adds the natural elements. I am sure that statement is unpopular with some. But, if it SOUNDS good, I go with it. I don't hear phase in my headphones, though... And there seems to be a lot of debate in other topics, whether the phase difference is still there, even if we don't hear it in our headphones. But, it seems more people are saying it is unproblematic than are saying it is problematic... Still, I am a little surprised that there isn't a solid answer.

[RPSharman]

I don't hear phase in my headphones, though... And there seems to be a lot of debate in other topics, whether the phase difference is still there, even if we don't hear it in our headphones.

 

You don't hear phase, but you should hear phasing.  I bet you do hear it, but perhaps don't always recognize it.  Sometimes phasing is worse than other times, but when it's bad, you should absolutely be able to hear it and recognize it.

[Denielle]

My friend has done all kinds of work. TV, reality, and narrative. And not thing sitting 'on the editing room floor' so to speak. Which is why I have respect for him. Moving his way up. It is my opinion that, the further 'up' we go... The more this will be expected. I love the 'mixing' part. But was surprised to be told it is irrelevant. I knew I could turn to you all for advise.

[Denielle]

Robert: I may have been a bit unclear. It seems to me, yes, I should hear it. And if I am not hearing it, then leaving the boom and lav open should be ok to do on the mix. Correct?

[RPSharman]

My friend has done all kinds of work. TV, reality, and narrative. And not thing sitting 'on the editing room floor' so to speak. Which is why I have respect for him. Moving his way up. It is my opinion that, the further 'up' we go... The more this will be expected. I love the 'mixing' part. But was surprised to be told it is irrelevant. I knew I could turn to you all for advise.

 

Sorry to keep jumping it, but I bet if you check with everyone "further up", you'll discover almost all of them will deliver a mix track to editorial on narrative work.  Whether that mix is used in the end by the post mixers is another issue.  But I would be willing to bet more than 90% of production mixers working on full-budget narrative work are delivering a mix along with their ISO tracks.  In fact, I'd be confident saying more than 99%.

 

 

 

Robert: I may have been a bit unclear. It seems to me, yes, I should hear it. And if I am not hearing it, then leaving the boom and lav open should be ok to do on the mix. Correct?

 

Yes.  Correct.  At least that's my opinion.  As long as you are confident with what you are hearing sounds good, and there's no phasing, then it's ok.  But it concerns me that you said you haven't heard phasing.  If you routinely mix lavs and boom, you should have at least heard it before, I would think.

[Denielle]

I am sure I have heard it before... But, not often. And, until recently, I had commonly monitored boom on left ear and wires on the right... I tend to trust my ears. A previous thread in JW had some discussion stating that even if we don't hear it in our headphones, it may be a problem in post. I am trying to get clarity around that.