Line Level into a Zoom H4N

[HenryMilliner]

Hello Chaps,

 

I just thought I'd post and get other peoples opinions on getting the best results from the Zoom H4n.

 

I've noticed that the pre amps are quite noisy and that the "Line Level" that it expects is more domestic than professional (i.e 20 or 30 dB under Line)

 

The best results I've found are to put a 30dB pad on the line signal and wind the input level all the way down to 0.9 or 1 out of 100.

 

This seems to minimise the hiss, although I feel pretty uncomfortable working off the backstop... Maybe this is just from the habit or trying to keep analogue faders at about 70%

 

I'd love to know your thoughts and opinions.

 

Henry.

 

 

[Max Futterman]

What you are doing is probably the best way to do it. At 300 bucks, you can't expect much.

I'd say upgrade to one of Tascams recorders in the price range. I forget the model, but it does accept line level. It'll probably sound a bit better.

[Rick Reineke]

Yes, the 1/4" inputs on the H4n are unbalanced and can not handle nominal +4dB operation. According to the specs, the maximum input is around +2dBu, while most balanced +4dB (nominal) inputs can handle peaks to +20dB and higher. The H4's 1/4" input is further compromised by being designed to work with instrument impedance and also it's just padded down and goes though the POS preamps anyway.  In the H4n price range, the Tascam DR-40 and DR-100mkII are better recorders... IMO as well.

[studiomprd]

Hello, and welcome.

" it expects is more domestic than professional "

the entire Zoom range is more domestic than professional

[Gerard-NYNY]

nothing good is cheap; nothing cheap is good.

[HenryMilliner]

I'll certainly stick to my 788 or 744 for 99% of recording. it's great to know your getting the best out of kit, even if it is cheap.

 

I had an issue where my HDD stopped the 788 from booting last year while away on a film in France... I was very glad to have the H4n to hand for a few hours, to keep the production rolling.

 

 

Thanks for the advice and confirmation. Feel free to chip in if you've found a better way to use it.

 

H.

[rich]

Hi Henry. how are you doing?

 

last time i had to work with a zoom (production made me do it) i used XLR to 1/4" jumpers and the -10 setting on my nomad. thish seemed to work and was certainly better than using the xlr ins

[Jesse Flaitz]

I have a DR-40 in my backpack as a backup in case something happens to my recorder.  I haven't had to use it yet, but I prefer it over the Zoom I had before. 

[Chris Woodcock]

nothing good is cheap; nothing cheap is good.

Does that count for you as your rate is $20 a hour with kit ;-)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17G6eUApRFlqU6iHhzpeKR608-nigJvIsJDNf874q718/mobilebasic?pli=1&viewopt=127

Regards

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[studiomprd]

Looking over Gerard's info, I'm reminded of one or two of my favorite Senatoriums about archery and golf...

 

but a labor (only) rate of (ca$h) $20/hr is $160/8,  $220/10, $280/12 (OT after  8  which is not a disrespectful rate for a somewhat experienced young PSM, especially compared to some of the dumb offers we all see.

 

we are discussing Gerard, the awesomely awesome one, in another thread

[Chris Woodcock]

Looking over Gerard's info, I'm reminded of one or two of my favorite Senatoriums about archery and golf...

 

but a labor (only) rate of (ca$h) $20/hr is $160/8,  $220/10, $280/12 (OT after  8  which is not a disrespectful rate for a somewhat experienced young PSM, especially compared to some of the dumb offers we all see.

 

Gerard, that is you and your sign we are discussing in another thread, right?

Its advertised with kit though which is low

I think it safe to say it is him as they are both from New York and if you look at the equipment posts he has made its the same kit as in the URL.

Surely experience has nothing to do with price senator, if your bringing industry standard kit and claiming to be a professional then it should be a professional rate, not 20 quid all in cash at the end of the day

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[studiomprd]

" Surely experience has nothing to do with price "

I  differ on that.

Equipment (kit) rentals should be and are based on the equipment involved, and are daily or weekly.

Experience and capability are major factors even ion union gigs, but in the non-unionized sector, less experienced folks can, and do compete on prices (rates) and these same less experienced folks tend to get offered, and accept lower rates.

[Chris Woodcock]

" Surely experience has nothing to do with price "

I  differ on that.

Equipment (kit) rentals should be and are based on the equipment involved, and are daily or weekly.

Experience and capability are major factors even ion union gigs, but in the non-unionized sector, less experienced folks can, and do compete on prices (rates) and these same less experienced folks tend to get offered, and accept lower rates.

I have a different view senator

Its labour we are charing for, not experience. I get passed on jobs form a friend who has 30+ years in this industry over me when his calendar is full and I charge the same rate he does.

I also don't do half days, so charging $20 per hour including kit is not healthy for this industry.

That is just my view though

Regards

Chris

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[studiomprd]

" Its labour we are charing for, not experience. "

Its skilled labour we are charing for, not just experience and reputation.

 

and life is not always fair...

many years ago I too got : " passed on jobs form a friend who has 30+ years... "

and got the same rates they got,  in fact I've had friends get me gig's where I got paid more than them... and these included union gigs!

 

it isn't just about lower rates, there are some folks who can, and do, charge premium (over-scale) rates as well...

[bralleput]

"Mike you owe me a T-shirt that say's  'RTFM' will send adress.PM.David C

[Derek H]

I've had good results with the zoom h2 and h1 using the 1/8" line input. Feeding from 302 or 552 tape outs. Levels seem to line up well.

They're cheaper to boot. If going cheap might as well go real cheap!

[Gerard-NYNY]

Does that count for you as your rate is $20 a hour with kit ;-)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17G6eUApRFlqU6iHhzpeKR608-nigJvIsJDNf874q718/mobilebasic?pli=1&viewopt=127

Regards

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

.lmfao

 

and it worked. i've gotten some calls. its a good rate, a cheap rate in fact. and for a kit that fits in a messenger bag, i dont mind giving a cheap rate for those blokes one bit. notice i indicated:

 

'no flat day rates'

 

because, as we all know, the new to the biz people don't work as fast. so the $19 hourly adds up, rather than down. most of the time. it only hurts when i have an early a.m. call time the next day.

 

additionally, its been a good way to connect with newbies. and seasoned pros.

 

i put up a different poster about three years ago and one of the busier cameramen in nyc responded, because he saw it where he gets his breakfast every morning. been hired up as sound and other capacities ever since. a lot.

 

btw, posters is my side biz, and i'm always busy in that regard. quite often i go straight from a shoot to the poster biz. i also never worry when video is slow.

 

www.promotermotor.blogspot.com

 

if you've seen the attached 'PromoterMotor limited edition Max Headroom Video Pirate poster' around your neighborhood, that is one of mine as well.

 

one of the first things i learned in postering for my service oriented clients is:

 

"find the first time customer first, before somebody else does."

[chrisnewton]

I've had good results with the zoom h2 and h1 using the 1/8" line input. Feeding from 302 or 552 tape outs. Levels seem to line up well.

They're cheaper to boot. If going cheap might as well go real cheap!

Me too. Never a problem. sounds good. H2 mic preamps are bypassed.

[Toy Robot]

Are you trying to feed the H4n line level signal from your mixer using the XLR ins on the H4n? That will not work, and will force you to attenuate heavily on the H4n to try and get it to work. XLR inputs on the Zoom H4n are mic level only, and if you're using mic level you'll be adjusting your input settings much higher than .9 as you noted above, leaving you with a vastly enhanced capability to adjust gain structure. The 1/4" inputs are capable of consumer line level as noted above.

Also, how are you getting 'hiss' from the H4n when you're bypassing the preamps by using a mixer to feed it? I use an H4n regularly to backup my 552 and the files are audibly indistinguishable to me from the 552's files when settings and gain staging on the H4n are correct. Hiss from an H4n (when set up properly) would be a major red flag to me that you have another problem going on, but my guess is you could be hearing nasty stuff if you're attempting to push a line level signal through mic level only inputs.

[Petros Kolyvas]

Also, how are you getting 'hiss' from the H4n when you're bypassing the preamps by using a mixer to feed it? I use an H4n regularly to backup my 552 and the files are audibly indistinguishable to me from the 552's files when settings and gain staging on the H4n are correct. Hiss from an H4n (when set up properly) would be a major red flag to me that you have another problem going on, but my guess is you could be hearing nasty stuff if you're attempting to push a line level signal through mic level only inputs.

 

My experience mimics yours exactly.

 

I use a mic-level out from my 552 into both the XLRs and the integrated mic-bypass and have a label on the front of my H4n which indicates the exact gain settings to maintain the same 20dB headroom such that 0 on my 552 meters is just south of -20dBFS on the H4n and can be confirmed (and adjusted in post) with a bit of tone injected into each recording either at the beginning or end.

 

Part of my reason for choosing the H4n over Tascam's arguably "better" units was a) 4 ins, use as an emergency audio interface if needed. I've never loved the H4n, but I've often been pleasantly surprised by it, despite its many deficiencies. 

[Tom Visser]

I also agree on the H1 and H2/H2n for our industry.  The H4 brings to the table things that are not really needed (4 inputs, poor preamps).  The smaller recorders have suitable real line level inputs on unbalanced stereo mini jacks perfect for tape outputs of professional mixers.  If you really need 4 inputs, there are pro solutions that are better suited.

[audioguy]

Sometimes I do occasional 1 - 2 day short indie projects that may not pay a ton but do them because they are very interesting. For those, I will bring them a "bug out bag" I keep at the ready which is a mixer, shotgun, H4N, and maybe throw in some wireless if I feel generous. With like a Schoeps CMIT 5U on a good mixer and sending a mic signal to the H4N, you can get some usable / decent sound.

[Gerard-NYNY]

Sometimes I do occasional 1 - 2 day short indie projects that may not pay a ton but do them because they are very interesting. For those, I will bring them a "bug out bag" I keep at the ready which is a mixer, shotgun, H4N, and maybe throw in some wireless if I feel generous. With like a Schoeps CMIT 5U on a good mixer and sending a mic signal to the H4N, you can get some usable / decent sound.

my back up for the sonosax sx bd 1 is:

 

schoeps>phantom power supply>shure fp 11 mic to line preamp>zaxcom zfr 100.

 

you can of course go into a zoom.

 

in the event i need a volume pot to ride, i have a Sescom IL-LEVEL-IT 1-Channel XLR Inline Balanced Audio Volume Control

to put in the chain.

 

i am so tired of wearing a mixer when it isnt necessary. a nice light system keeps me awesomely awesome and my ears fresh all day.