Roland R88

[nbhcke]

 

 

Hopefully this video will anseer some of your questions.

[Andrej H]

Soundman, you sound like you want someone to validate your already formed opinion (or expectation of what this machine should be) and say - "yes, it's a great completely PRO machine, you should buy it and rent it." But instead you were given some useful ideas and opinions there from the guys. 

 

My experience - It is not noisy - at least not with the mics I used - MKH60, 70 and Sanken COS11D lavaliers. I also used it for recording music with gain hungry Line Audio CM3, Shure KSM141, even a few dynamic mics (on loud percussion sources) - Shure SM57, Beyerdynamic M99, Isomax II and Neumann M149 and it worked really nice with those mics... Subjectively it sounded even cleaner than my usual TC Studiokonnekt 48 soundcard and DAV BG1U preamps. 

 

It does look and feel plastic - but really it is very strong and compact, despite its look - not fragile at all. I don't like the tactile sensation of the knobs and buttons, but they worked very reliable for me on a demanding 40 days all-real location shooting for a TV drama series. It was carried around (not heavy at all to me), I ran with it, we had rain, we had dust and dirt, moisture in kitchens, shooting in some small apartments and hotel rooms in almost tropic heat in early august, out in the nature - woods, meadows, etc. The thing never ever hiccuped... But it does feel plastic (if sturdy at the same time) and we shall see how long it will last without problems. Battery life - it ran ca.3 hours with one 48v powered boom and four wireless lavaliers attached. 

To have 8 preamps is great - there were a few occasions when I needed all of them. Timecode seemed to work. But they synced with Pluraleyes anyway.

 

I don't see a serious competition in that price range. And soundwise I doubt you would miss much. I am glad it came out when we were looking for a decent low (or let's say - reasonable) price PRO recorder - I doubt Tascam DR-680 we eyed originally would cope with this project - and it would be too noisy for my liking... and no timecode that the production wanted. R-88 was the least that was appropriate for serious work.

If R-88 earns us enough the next step would be probably SD788t - this is also what I would rent myself if available near me for a reasonable fee. R-88 could be your secondary unit to rent to indie filmmakers, low budget documentaries, etc. But I don't know how much can you charge to rent that... I guess because it lacks some workflow functionality the pros are used to there are no comparisons of sound between higher end recorders and this one... The guys with big guns just don't care for this little fellow...

 

Edit - scratch all that opinion crap I wrote - you live in London - you must have stores where you can demo it... Just demo it. The only sure way to know about the sound.  

[studiomprd]

" I have seen many using H4 and now H6 on movie sets R88 is still better. I hope to see some technicals. "

" Also wanted to know what's the dynamic range of roland r88 "

They are all toys, adopted by the lo/no money movie-making world

I'm not going to rehash what professionals demand from their tools, but I would point you to the various technical specifications from the manufacturers;  in professional gear, we tend to consider missing spec's as not being very good...

 

" I would be worried if this doesn't perform well as a Good Quality Sound Recorder. What are the issues with recording quality is what am asking for cosmetics aren't on my radar. Any one has or can give more experienced idea where it lags technically. "

have you not read the spec's available?? you apparently have not read much, if any,  of the available discussions here on this forum.

you don't really seem to have a grasp of how rental business works, but you can certainly buy what ever you want to own for yourself, and see if your peers will rent it from you when you are not using it.

" a Good Quality Sound Recorder " that depends on what you consider a Good Quality Sound Recorder

 

" its low end pro gear, not high end consumer gear. "

aka Pro-sumer, aka semi-Pro

 

" OK.. since you went there. "

and the A-D converters are inferior

sure, it can make 24 bit files, but it does not have 24 bit audio!

 

" I know the metadata entries are limited as of now but You mean that even the Timecode isint mated to the files that goes written onto the SHDC cards ? " + " As i havent seen any technical comparisons for R88 vs higher end P82 or 664s etc. "

shows me you still have not done your own homework...

and

" How would one decide which preamps are good or bad. "

(price is certainly an indicator )

you asked a forum of working professionals and keep arguing with our comments...

[studiomprd]

" but they wont make recorded sounds/dialogues be heard as crap on a theatrical release ? "

whatever floats your boat...

so, why are you even discussing this with us, as you have clearly made your decision.

[Philip Perkins]

Don't worry about the plastic case.  Are you planning on dropping it without a bag on it?  If I did that with my SD recorders (metal) they would be damaged too.  My Tascam HDP2 and Casio and HHB DAT machines survived in very harsh conditions and worked just fine.

Do worry about the accuracy of the sample clock.  The TC Buddy or ext TC thing will only work for you if you can get the clock of the recorder to be the same as that of the camera.  On other more expensive recorders the internal clock of the recorder is TXCO and very accurate on its own, so just getting the camera clock settled down is all that is needed.  I don't know anything about the internal clock accuracy of the Roland--you'll have to get that info from Roland and do some long-term sync tests with it.  If it isn't as accurate as SD/Zax/Aaton etc recorders then you need a sync box that can give you both TC and wordclock for the recorder, and another you can jam sync to the first that gives you TriLevel sync and TC for the camera.

 

philp

[studiomprd]

"  Are you planning on dropping it without a bag on it? "

no one "plans" to drop it...

"Why be gentle, if it's only rental" comes to mind...

it isn't just the plastic case, but the entire construction to consider for long term ruggedness

[Constantin]

Hi can u pl specify more on quality of recording, cosmetics needn't be seen much as its upto the users handling.

You intended to rent it out. You have no control over the handling.

I cannot comment on the sound of the R88. But I have used both the R4 and the R4Pro, which are, proably, the R88's ancestors.

Both are OK sounding, matching their price point. The pro does perhaps sound a bit cleaner. There is some noticeable hiss on both machine's pres, but it's not a deal breaker. Don't remember the low-end. The headphone is terrible on both machines, which makes it dufficult to judge the quality on-set. Metering sucks, too.

But neither messed up the sound so much that you couldn't understand a word anymore

[studiomprd]

" We can confirm that the preamps are not noisy. There is no issues with the preamp or clock. "

wow!

 

 

but it doesn't have NeverClip...

[Sound Man]

Nevermind for this time. My budget gets me the lovely R88

[VASI]

Congrats Sound Man!

 

[Jon Gilbert]

Who are you Sound Man? Tell us a bit more about yourself, plenty of potential business for you on here!

[Philip Perkins]

Happy new recorder.  Do youself a favor and do some long-take sync tests with it.  I mean tests, like with a pro video camera, a TC slate etc with the results looked at in an edit system, not anecdotal info from usage.  Did Roland give you a number re clock accuracy?

That would be helpful information.

 

philp

[Philip Perkins]

Yeps, will syncro rec with c300 long take, short takes, random switching off of power etc to simulate/verify all possible shot location situations. 

 

Roland didnt provide any number re clock accuracy, havent yet been able to flip thru the supplied book. Pl suggest any other tests that may perform to update info.

I suggest you not treat a C300 as a good clock/TC source, because it isn't really very accurate.  You need something like a Lockit or a recorder (SD/Zax etc) that has a high-accuracy sample clock for the test to be meaningful.

 

philp

[Christopher Mills]

The C300 is so inaccurate that... I didn't bother measuring it editor producer on a shoot I did late spring told me his test showed it to be hopeless, and we applied a lockit box immediately..

[Christopher Mills]

well.. on one shooting day he did have me rejam the b cam every 40 minutes or so.. when it was needed for an alternate angle on interviews.

He's an experienced editor, but the client would only pay for one lockit.

[Jim Gilchrist]

Now thats an issue, haven't got LockIT TC generator. Would need more time to learn more on it. But will certainly test it between my current scenario !

 

I am yet to understand when you say C300 TC is inaccurate. Need to see how much does it drifts during the day ... can you explain it to the noob in me

While I don't have any info regarding how stable the C300's clock is when just left running, in real-world circumstances the camera drops anywhere from a few frames to several seconds whenever switched from recording mode to playback, when media is changed out and reformatted and when powered down and then up for battery changes. Thus the need for a stable external clock.

 

Since the timecode input and output share a common connect and it requires going into a menu to change the connector's function as in or out, it makes even the simplest task like confirming the timecode output's rate and then feeding the camera code a multi-step process. 

 

If I was building a production package around the Roland R88 and the Canon C300, I'd add a pair of decent clocks, Denecke or Ambient, to the budget, along with some money to have a custom accessory plate fabricated for the C300 so there's a place to stick all the gack the camera will end up having attached to it.

Best regards,

Jim

[studiomprd]

cognitive dissonance

[Angelo Waldron]

What time is it?

 

[studiomprd]

" Any users experience from this point of view ? "

I don't believe many folks here share your point of view..

[Christopher Mills]

look.. You are seeing why this is in its price point.. to create a tc lock, you will need actual master clocks on both devices..

the ones I have experience with are made by Denecke and Ambient.  I suggest either one.

this will increase the price of your setup, and will make it more reliable and professional project frinedly.

 

there are some design characteristics that will always keep this off my list of primary recorders, but I can see how many people could make do with it.

 

However, I think that the price of accessories needed to make it inter operable in a shoot with the SD and Zax portable recorders in this track range will end up making the price identical, and be much more cumbersome.

 

Now, on to the C-300 shoot I did.. the single camera shoot, where I had a lockit on the camera yielded substantially matching time code on audio files and picture files.. and I don't care what the readout looks like... (many cameras, including the Alexa, have the display lagging behind the internal files).

When we resorted to periodic re-jaming a B-Cam C-300 without a lockit, our results were spotty..

apparently pulling and reinstalling media can introduce drift as well as powering down the camera, and possibly touching other controls on the camera than record..

[studiomprd]

" should I get Two wifi master from TimecodeBuddy system. "

sure.

[Constantin]

The lag is constant by +3 frame (its not shifting or being variable) Which make me think that should I get Two wifi master from TimecodeBuddy system. It should help me nail TC for CameraC300 & Recorder R88...

I prefer TBuddy as I already have One master Wifi & One Transmitter.

it it's really 3 frames difference - always - then it's very easy to fix and you wouldn't need another TC device. Also I suspect that even with another TC buddy, the 3 sec lag may not be fixed

[studiomprd]

" but it would have been ideal "

coulda'

shoulda'

woulda'

 

" TC drift is 3frames. "

it is not drifting!

that is an offset.

 

the rule, rules: seems like you got what you paid for

[Constantin]

oops, But how do you be suspect this ?

Yes, its always 3frames. Strangely the audio starts recording about 3-4secs after video and plus to that TC drift is 3frames. so on edit i would just match TC and then do the 3frame maths... but it would have been ideal if TC were in sync.

I suspected that, because, like the Senator says, a constant 3 frame lag is not a drift, it's an offset. There are many possible reasons for that, but if it's really really fixed on 3 secs - even on very long recording? - the the problem is most likely an issue in the setup

[Constantin]

Thanks for correcting me. Yes its offset, I couldnt place the reason thats causing this offset. Using TB to link camera tc to recorder. Maths of +3 frames is not much on fcp but still trying to pin the reason and correct it if possible.

This means basic troubleshooting for you, I'm afraid. Find the culprit, then find out why, then try to eliminate the issue, then send the offending machine in.

Best of luck. Troubleshooting can be fun - sort of. A fun that increases exponentially once you've found the (or a) fault