Boom Recorder, MOTU 896HD: How/What do you use to control levels?

[CinciSoundGuy]

I have been building a computer based solution with Boom Recorder. My problem is: I cannot control the input levels going into Boom Recorder short of using the little trim knobs on the front of the 896. Do you also run a mixer in front of the interface? I am interested in how those of you using this or a similar solution handle this.

Cheers,

Adam Rabinowitz

Sound for Film & Video

www.soundfilmvideo.com

[Philip Perkins]

I have been building a computer based solution with Boom Recorder. My problem is: I cannot control the input levels going into Boom Recorder short of using the little trim knobs on the front of the 896. Do you also run a mixer in front of the interface? I am interested in how those of you using this or a similar solution handle this.

Cheers,

Adam Rabinowitz

Sound for Film & Video

www.soundfilmvideo.com

I use a MOTU Traveler w/ Metacorder, same issue.  I use a mixer with direct outs to feed the inputs of Traveler, and trim the levels in MOTU's "CueMix" software (as well as the the front mounted trim knobs for those 4 channels).  If your mixer doesn't have direct outs you can also use Y cords to split the inputs between your mixer and the MOTU box.  You can use the MOTU to make a mix (via Cue Mix), but it is a little clumsy for location dialog work.  Lots of music recordists work this way, w/o a mixer.  The Cue Mix software is very versitile and can do many things for you(4 mixes @ once etc).

Philip Perkins

[CinciSoundGuy]

I use a MOTU Traveler w/ Metacorder, same issue.  I use a mixer with direct outs to feed the inputs of Traveler, and trim the levels in MOTU's "CueMix" software (as well as the the front mounted trim knobs for those 4 channels).  If your mixer doesn't have direct outs you can also use Y cords to split the inputs between your mixer and the MOTU box.  You can use the MOTU to make a mix (via Cue Mix), but it is a little clumsy for location dialog work.  Lots of music recordists work this way, w/o a mixer.  The Cue Mix software is very versitile and can do many things for you(4 mixes @ once etc).

Philip Perkins

Philip,

I also have an SD 442, and I know I can control levels on the direct outs using the trim knobs. Is that what you do as well? I have tinkered with Cue Mix, but it does not seem to effect boom recorder input levels unless the inputs for a given channel are spec'd as "Mix1". I am not sure that changing individual channel levels is doing anything more than varying a channel's monitor level as opposed to actual signal level. The documentation on cue mix isn't that comprehensive to start with, so I may direct a question or 2 towards MOTU. It was my hope to essentially use cue mix as the front end with a mini-mackie midi fader bank as a control surface... I am also interested in what/how you implement a master clock in the mix. I had planned on using my FR-2 as a master clock and also as a 2 channel mixdown/backup unit - any thoughts on that strategy?

Thanks for your input,

Adam

[Philip Perkins]

Philip,

I also have an SD 442, and I know I can control levels on the direct outs using the trim knobs. Is that what you do as well? I have tinkered with Cue Mix, but it does not seem to effect boom recorder input levels unless the inputs for a given channel are spec'd as "Mix1". I am not sure that changing individual channel levels is doing anything more than varying a channel's monitor level as opposed to actual signal level. The documentation on cue mix isn't that comprehensive to start with, so I may direct a question or 2 towards MOTU. It was my hope to essentially use cue mix as the front end with a mini-mackie midi fader bank as a control surface... I am also interested in what/how you implement a master clock in the mix. I had planned on using my FR-2 as a master clock and also as a 2 channel mixdown/backup unit - any thoughts on that strategy?

Thanks for your input,

Adam

With Metacorder and Motu I mostly use larger format mixers with direct outs, often up to 16 channels for music work and up to 8 for film/video.  You are correct that the linear faders in Cue Mix only control monitor levels, but the TRIM controls up @ the top control the input levels to the Motu box (just like the input trimmers on the front of your 896).  It is with those that I set up the levels going into Metacorder.  You can then make a 2 ch mix on the Cue Mix faders, with a few caveats. First, if you move those faders quickly, either with a mouse or with an external controller, you may get zipper noise.  I don't think that they were really intended for active mixing that way--more for a music-style set and forget monitor mix.  2nd, you'll have to check out the latency of the whole system re putting that mix in sync with your inputs on your recorder--I found that the Motu latency was considerable, and so use the mix I was making on my outboard mixer that I input along with the direct outs--all in sync.  Re: clock, for me it depends on what else is in the system for that job--the Traveler has a lot of options of what it can clock to.  Since your FR2 has no clock output, perhaps you could ship its AES or SPDIF output the MOTU's input and tell the system to clock to that.  If you are shipping FR2 TC to an audio input (for Boom Rec.), the Traveler allows you to clock the box to the incoming TC--probably the 896 does as well?

Philip Perkins

[Jeff Wexler]

I'm not sure what happened with these last posts in this thread but I believe it is a problem with the use of the Reply with Quote feature that is very confusing. It looks like Philip's last post has the Quote really skinny and then below I'm not sure whose post it is I'm reading.

If you select the Reply with Quote, you have to be very mindful of all the times that the word quote shows up in brackets and if you edit what it is you wish to quote, you need to delete unwanted text but be sure that everything you want stays inbetween the first bracketed quote and the last bracketed quote. Then your post needs to follow the last bracketed quote. Does thart make sesne...  or nonsense. It's not the way I would have designed this software.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[CinciSoundGuy]

Philip,

My idea of using CueMix as the front end level controller won't work for a variety of reasons, but mostly becuase (unless you know differently) there is only 1 mix ("Mix1") that boom recorder can see. The other 3 monitor busses are essentially invisable. I use Bus1/Mix1 as a send mix via AES/EBU to my backup recorder, and the other 3 busses as mixes/isos for cam hops.

Here is my setup: Studio Technologies Model 750 mixer, Motu 896HD, 1.25GHz Powerbook, FR-2 w/TC. I chose the Model 750 because it (it was in inventory) has 2 stereo busses, is very clean sounding and mates well in a shallow rack with the 896HD. The FR-2 is my master clock and backup recorder. I take the clock out of the FR2 into channel 1 on the Motu. Boom recorder sees it fine as does the Motu SMPTE clock app. I then use the Motu app to regen the TC backout channel 1 on the 896HD to feed directly (via wireless link) a Denecke slate. My question is will the latency of the TC signal be significant from the FR-2 to the slate? How far off will the TC be from the FR-2 and boom recorder? Do I have all the compnents properly synched?

All comments are appreciated!

Cheers,

Adam Rabinowitz

Sound for Film & Video

www.soundfilmvideo.com

[Philip Perkins]

Does the ST mixer have direct outs?  By "clock from the FR2" I assume you mean timecode, and while what you are doing will work I don't much like the idea of TC passing thru audio devices--TC is really pernicious about getting into grounds and showing up in the background of the audio.  Re: latency, yes I think you will have some, but if you jam the slate off the analog out you describe you should be pretty close, and the telecine people can figure the offset between the slate code and the recorded code with the first clap and then leave that in for the rest of the session.  If you want to know what your latency is you might take a video camera and arrange a TC slate jammed as you describe in a shot along with the TC display of the FR2 (your TC generator).  Roll some video, then do a freeze frame in playback and see how far off the numbers are.  Remember that the Denecke has a frame of latency itself.

Philip Perkins

[CinciSoundGuy]

Philiip,

Yes, the ST does have programmable direct outs. I also took heed with what you said about the TC signal and have now split it at the FR2 instead of running it both in and out of the MOTU hardware. That should even further reduce any inherent latency in the chain. Unfortuately, setting up a jammable camera as you had suggested is not doable for the near future, but as long as there is consistency we should be fine. In this project we are using prosumer cameras which are not jammable so I plan on jamming all TC gear to TOD which all of the cameras have some facility to do. The Director has informed me of her intent on using Final Cut for post. I have been testing this setup for a couple of days now and it seems stable enough. I was very happy to see that FCP 5 Studio accepted a 4 channel MOV file w/TC created by boom recorder and the timecode was fully visable, too bad channel names weren't carried through.

Cheers,

Adam Rabinowitz

[Philip Perkins]

I wasn't telling you to jam the video camera, just take any old home video camera and shoot video of both TC displays, then freeze frame the playback and see if the numbers are the same.  Let it run for a few hours and do this, you can see your TC drift.  Very cool about BR making multitrack QT files--that saves a lot of converting that we have to do with all other NL recorders BWF>QT for FCP.

Philip Perkins

[Jeff Wexler]

I didn't know BoomRecorder made QT files (.mov) directly ... is this new?

-  JW

[Jeff Wexler]

it has done it since V1 (Aug 2005)

I guess I just never looked --- and I'm the one who discovered BoomRecorder in the first place.

-  JW

[takev]

I guess I just never looked --- and I'm the one who discovered BoomRecorder in the first place.

I can finally enter this discussion. I've been following it because of the how to set the gain on the device, I've been very curious what people use in front of Boom Recorder as it can not realistically set gain for you (only a handful of audio interfaces have a programmable gain).

QuickTime recording has been there so long that I am actually thinking of removing this feature. I've never been completely happy with it as it is uses a lot of CPU time. But I had to use the QuickTime API to create these files as the documentation didn't explain what the format was of high resolution multi channel .mov files.

Don't worry, I will replace it with something better, it is possible to create stub QuickTime .mov files that point to the original .wav files for its audio data. So BR will then create both, so you can import the .mov files into final cut pro, and than later use the .wav files in your audio edit application. I guess you only have to search and replace .mov with .wav in the EDS that is output by Final Cut Pro.

However next thing on the list... multi-polylphonic files.

Cheers,

    Take

[S Harber]

Hi Adam,

I am running a Yamaha 01V96 with an MLan card that goes directly into a powerbook to boomcorder.

Also there's a MOTU 828Mk2 that converts the ADAT to analog for more outs.(A shortcoming of the 01v). These analog outs go to video decks.

It works well. A bit geeky for most but I like the setup for this project.

You definitely need a mixer between yourself and the interface or you are going to be mixing on the RF receivers-seriouslyNG.

Scott Harber

[Darren]

Scott,

As using mLAN with OSX forces you to use the computer as a master clock instead of your mixer etc, I was just wondering if, in your experience, this has ever caused you any clocking issues.  When testing recording 8 tracks with mLAN, I found that I mLAN caused the occasional drop out.  After contacting Yamaha regarding this, Yamaha stated that they are aware of this issue and are in process of writing new OSX drivers for mLAN that will allow one to choose which device they prefer to be their master clock.

Best,

Darren

[S Harber]

Scott,

As using mLAN with OSX forces you to use the computer as a master clock instead of your mixer etc, I was just wondering if, in your experience, this has ever caused you any clocking issues.  When testing recording 8 tracks with mLAN, I found that I mLAN caused the occasional drop out.  After contacting Yamaha regarding this, Yamaha stated that they are aware of this issue and are in process of writing new OSX drivers for mLAN that will allow one to choose which device they prefer to be their master clock.

Best,

Darren

Hi Darren,

The clocking of mLan is defintely an issue. Having the computer as a W/C master, which mLan needs via the 01v, is definitely not the best situation. I haven't had any dropouts yet but I am in the testing mode at this point w/ mLan and Boomcorder.

I still have the Motu interface to work w/ via  ADAT/FW if things get bad.

I'd love to see Yamaha resolve this and go to to the standard of the A/D being the W/C master.

Reading posts on various mLan sites makes me think that Yamaha is slowly backing out of the mLan venture. Hopefully this is just a rumor but...

til then I'm testing and geekin.

Scott Harber

[Darren]

The clocking of mLan is defintely an issue. Having the computer as a W/C master, which mLan needs via the 01v, is definitely not the best situation. I haven't had any dropouts yet but I am in the testing mode at this point w/ mLan and Boomcorder.

I still have the Motu interface to work w/ via  ADAT/FW if things get bad.

I'd love to see Yamaha resolve this and go to to the standard of the A/D being the W/C master.

Reading posts on various mLan sites makes me think that Yamaha is slowly backing out of the mLan venture. Hopefully this is just a rumor but...

til then I'm testing and geekin.

Scott Harber

I am using a combination of the Yamaha's ADAT and digital outputs to get 10 inputs into the Traveler and this has been working well for me.  There are rumours on various usenets regarding the future of mLAN, but Yamaha tells me that they are in fact just that, rumours.  I suppose time will tell.