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DSLR best practices from the perspective of a location sound recordist


Stewart

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Here's a question for location sound recordists who have worked on, or are prepared to work on, shoots in which the principal camera is a digital single lens reflex camera or, with the release of the new Leica M, digital rangefinder camera.

 

From a sound recordist's perspective, what are the best practices? In an ideal world, what would you tell the producer or director of a video using one of these cameras what you want him or her to do to get good sound and a smooth workflow from capture through post-production? I'm aware of the pinned thread Canon "5D shoot workflow", which contains a good number of posts about poor practices and frustrations. The idea behind this thread, if people are interested, is to identify best sound practices when using these types of cameras.

 

Why the question? I have used Leica cameras and lenses for many years and I have ordered the new M, which is slowly making its way to retailers. I want to use it for video and, to that end, would like to get the perspective of sound department people on how to make their lives, as well as mine, easier/efficient/productive.

 

I would take the following as a given:

 

(1) double system sound;

 

(2) a digital sound recorder, such as a Sound Devices 7 series recorder, that has the capacity to generate time code.

 

Thanks.

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Hi Mike,

 

There's been a pretty thorough discussion about people using these cameras who aren't paying enough attention to sound, and about what doesn't work, but maybe less discussion about what does work. That said, if someone wants to move this thread into the pinned "5D Shoot Workflow" thread, fine with me.

 

Why do you consider timecode generation unnecessary? Plural Eyes? Traditional slate works as well as a time code slate jammed by the recorder and filmed by the camera?

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" Why do you consider timecode generation unnecessary? "

then camera in question has no capability to deal with SMPTE TC.

 

The fact that these cameras don't deal with SMPTE time code doesn't mean that it isn't useful. Which is why I wrote the following:

 

"Why do you consider timecode generation unnecessary? Plural Eyes? Traditional slate works as well as a time code slate jammed by the recorder and filmed by the camera?"

 

Chris W, in his reply, seems to suggest just using traditional sticks.

 

The idea behind the thread is "best practices". What do you think? Plurlal Eyes, presumably with an external mic to the camera, or a time code slate jammed by the recorder and filmed by the camera, or a traditional slate? And maybe some comment on what the real differences are between these alternatives.

 

In your original post, you said that all of this has already been thoroughly discussed on this site. Right now, it doesn't look like it.

 

Would really like to see you post some opinions on digital single lens reflex/rangefinder digital that goes beyond run 'n' gun above it all one liners.

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" The idea behind the thread is "best practices". What do you think? "

that all depends on what you consider "best"...

old fashioned double system  with clear clapper recorded and photographed is simple, basic, and reliable.

 

the speed accuracy spec of the camera ,model in question does not meet SMPTE spec's for TC

my opinion on DSLR and D-reflex cameras is that they are great cameras for still photography, and can be a versatile alternative for double system movie- making.

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Mike, I didn't ask for an opinion on the cameras. Their use is a given. The question is best how to record sound to them.

 

I am aware of the fact that many, many of your responses to questions is "it depends" and that you have a particular fondness for not terribly clever cracks, which at this point have become quite tiresome, suggesting that if people buy the latest golf club, they think that they will play like Tiger Woods. Sorry, but you really sound like a broken record, and it would be great, as someone who it appears might know what he is talking about, if you would try to share some actual substance.

 

Regardless, the title of this sub-forum is Workflow, and it might actually be helpful to discuss the best workflow for these cameras. Yes, people might have varying views on what works best as a workflow, which is precisely why it might be useful to discuss it.

 

I am well aware of the fact that these cameras don't meet SMPTE specifications for time code, which more importantly raises a question that is worth discussing. If one syncs one of these cameras, whether via a traditional slate, or a time code slate, or in post via Plural Eyes, from a sound recordist/mixer point of view, how long can a take be before drift in the camera becomes an issue? If anyone has concrete data on this for any of the DSLR cameras (I doubt that anyone knows yet for the Leica M), it would be great if they could share it.

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Don't think forward with your Leica M (or a 5D Mk2 or Mk3), think backwards. They're like a really advanced 16mm Bolex with no sound sync.

 

I'd say (take it with a pound of salt) that you don't need a recorder that generates time code. If the camera will not sync to it there's no point. Sound sync in post production will happen the old fashioned (and still effective) way of matching a loud sound spike (a clapper board? an iPhone app?) to a frame. It's worked well for a long time.

 

So, double sound? Yes. Digital recorder capable of 24/48 or better sound? Yes. Time code capability? Not needed but nice to have for future projects with other cameras.

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The truth is that TC is not necessary anymore.  By now I've done hundreds of shoots w/ DSLRs of many types where my recorder has TC but the camera does not in any traditional sense.  The sync is done by eye and by matching audio, hence PluralEyes.  If you want to try this out with a Leica as opposed to one of the DSLRs whose workflow has been throughly wrung out then do some sync tests--very easy to do.  My guess is that you'll find a way to make that camera work as well as the Canons, with the same limitations.  My own usual methodology is to get some kind of a scratch feed to the camera audio track (via a small wireless receiver) and try to get some sort of "hard mark" at the head of each take (ie a slate).  There are many variations on  this, including putting a small shotgun mic on the camera, using a bloop light or mic-tap slate, or no slate at all.  Let us know how the Leica works out for this kind of use.

 

philp

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Thanks very much to Chris, Jim and Philip for your comments. The new Leica M, and especially the lenses that it will make available for video recording, is very interesting, and I promise to post here about how it performs. I'm high on the delivery list of one of New York's best photography stores, but new Leica rollouts take time. Hopefully, I'll have one by the end of April.

 

Meanwhile, I'd really like to see more comments on this thread. For one thing, a lot of what I've read elsewhere on this site seems to stress a recorder time code jam to a time code slate, the latter photographed by the camera. In this thread, so far, there seems to be a view that a traditional slate will suffice.

 

I'm really interested in seeing more views on recording sound with these cameras. I got a kick out of Jim's analogy to a Bolex :)

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I am currently making a doc and my workflow is a 5D which limits us to 12 min takes and a Panasonic GH2. We record sound on my Deva 4 or SD 744t, which ever one is available and any number of mics but 75% of the time w a Schoeps 41. We use a smart slate because I own 4 of them and not a single dumb slate but that would also work fine. After I transcode the camera files to ProRez 422 I sync the sound and picture elements in FCP and export them to my work drive which also gets backed up after every import or editing session. So original material is on drive one, drive 2 gets the synced prorez files and I work off this drive and drive 2 is always backed up to drive 3. May not be the best way but it is my way. BTW, this is just how I do my own projects, as a sound mixer I care about the sound quality of each recording and I will work with any work flow the people I work for want. 

CrewC

Also I use a few old Leica lens on my GH2. Love the buttery look. Good luck.

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Thanks very much to Chris, Jim and Philip for your comments. The new Leica M, and especially the lenses that it will make available for video recording, is very interesting, and I promise to post here about how it performs. I'm high on the delivery list of one of New York's best photography stores, but new Leica rollouts take time. Hopefully, I'll have one by the end of April.

 

Meanwhile, I'd really like to see more comments on this thread. For one thing, a lot of what I've read elsewhere on this site seems to stress a recorder time code jam to a time code slate, the latter photographed by the camera. In this thread, so far, there seems to be a view that a traditional slate will suffice.

 

I'm really interested in seeing more views on recording sound with these cameras. I got a kick out of Jim's analogy to a Bolex :)

The all-TC workflow is important for larger scale productions with many people working on them and generating a lot of material, perhaps from several cameras in multiple units where that footage will later have to be conformed for audio post.  For smaller projects it is all very optional, but what we always say around here is that you must test your workflow(s), and include all parties in the tests.  There are a lot of ways to skin this cat anymore.

 

philp

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It's not really necessary to be using timecode slates in the DSLR workflow as you cannot jam sync the cameras, but I have been asked to bring one on these kind of shoots a few times and if they are paying a decent rate then why not use it. 

 

I suppose in post, if a plug like pluralize is not being used then the editor could bring up the shot, and then to find the audio he/she could  just type in the timecode that is displayed on the slate via a keyboard and sync it that way. It can't hurt to give post one more option to their workflow.

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The fact that these cameras don't deal with SMPTE time code doesn't mean that it isn't useful. 

 

That's true. However: not having a timecode capable camera does create many workflow challenges in post. Unlike film or traditional film-style digital production, the individual frames on a DLSR do not have unique identifiers, which is a problem for final conforms and visual effects. 

 

My take is that DSLR's should always get a wireless hop scratch track whenever possible to aid in syncing later on. But I've run into DPs who were unprepared with the correct mounts and opted to dump the wireless receiver due to mounting issues and size/weight problems for certain run & gun scenarios.

 

And amen to everything PhilP says above.

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...how long can a take be before drift in the camera becomes an issue? If anyone has concrete data on this for any of the DSLR cameras (I doubt that anyone knows yet for the Leica M), it would be great if they could share it.

 

 

Found this answer on the Sound Devices site at http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/cameras/5dii-audio-performance :

 

"In our tests, the 5DII was stable enough to hold lip sync against a 7-Series recorder for 10+ minutes."

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Thanks very much to Old School, Philip, Martin and Marc for your replies.

 

Old School, yes I like the lenses a lot. Although I own an M6, I mostly use an M3 made in the mid-50s. It just works for me. This will be my first digital Leica, having passed on the first two versions, because I think that they have now figured out how to make a serious digital M. I'm really interested in seeing what the video mode, with Leica lenses, can offer.

 

Much obliged to you guys.

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Found this answer on the Sound Devices site at http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/cameras/5dii-audio-performance :

 

"In our tests, the 5DII was stable enough to hold lip sync against a 7-Series recorder for 10+ minutes."

 

Yeah, I warned a producer not too long ago that I wasn't confident about a GoPro holding sync for 10 minutes, but I knew from past experience that the Canon 5D or 7D would definitely stay in sync that long. The other big issue with the GoPro cameras is automatic video level, which is a nightmare in post. Manual exposure on the Canons can yield reasonable pictures, assuming good lighting and enough time.

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" Sorry, but you really sound like a broken record, "

then why do so many keep asking the same questions ??

I think they sound like the broken record(s)...

 

" The truth is that TC is not necessary anymore. "

as a generality, many of us would disagree...

but the OP is asking about a "best" workflow for his particular, specific situation,  and we really don't know all the details of the rest of the workflow capabilities and limitations;  in any case, workflow tests will be required, and to determine a "best"n for this situation, several may need to be done, and compared.

for example: " One could also send a SMPTE signal to the DSLR's audio track. " but would the rest of the workflow support it well, if at all ??

" We use a smart slate because I own 4 of them "

thus making that "best" in that situation, but only because: he owns " not a single dumb slate "

 

" My take is that DSLR's should always get a wireless hop scratch track whenever possible to aid in syncing later on. "

popular... often the "scratch track" ends up being used (making it a "best" workflow.)

 

" However: not having a timecode capable camera does create many workflow challenges in post. Unlike film or traditional film-style digital production, the individual frames on a DLSR do not have unique identifiers, which is a problem for final conforms and visual effects. "

so this may or may not be a "best"... it depends.

 

" The sync is done by eye and by matching audio, hence PluralEyes. "

"best" in those cases...

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Thanks very much to Old School, Philip, Martin and Marc for your replies.

 

Old School, yes I like the lenses a lot. Although I own an M6, I mostly use an M3 made in the mid-50s. It just works for me. This will be my first digital Leica, having passed on the first two versions, because I think that they have now figured out how to make a serious digital M. I'm really interested in seeing what the video mode, with Leica lenses, can offer.

 

Much obliged to you guys.

 

Apparently huge rolling shutter issues due to the large CMOS device.  Great image capture for stills, but perhaps not a technical tour de force.  Video capabilities are average to mediocre from what I've seen.  The price, if you feel it is worth it, is for the build quality and the classic manual operation - but even falls behind technically from some much cheaper platforms.  If I had lots of M glass and disposable income, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase this, but not for video.

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Hi Tom,

 

I didn't mean to stray too far from the subject matter of the forum and this thread, which is sound recording. I've watched enough Leica releases play out to take early internet chatter, both positive and negative, with a grain of salt. Very few people are in possession of the camera, there's very little in the way of legitimate reviews and, as of today, there are a total of four short Leica video clips on the internet.

 

One was made on the fly by someone who says that he doesn't like rangefinders; one was made by a Leica "purist" with something of a profile on the internet, who says that he hates (his word) video, and doesn't know anything about it, and who chose to shoot his clip with an esoteric Noctilux f/0.95 lens, apparently largely handheld, in a café at night, which he then edited in iMovie; and one was made by Steve Huff, who loves the camera, but unfortunately it's almost impossible to conclude anything from his clip, which was made at night at an amusement park ride.

 

The fourth was made when the aforementioned "purist" wound up acknowledging publicly that he had no idea what he was doing, and so he enlisted a videographer to spend a few hours with his camera to make another short clip. The videographer had a good number of criticisms, but his clip, uncorrected for colour and unsharpened, actually looks pretty good. Not that one can tell a whole lot about anything once a video has been downsized for YouTube or Vimeo. The only other post from a videographer is from someone who owns the camera, who has been using it for work and who says that its video functionality is at least as good as his Canon 5Dii.

 

So who knows. The one issue that has been raised that I think may be significant is video compression, but I think that that is a firmware issue. Rolling shutter is just a fact of life with CMOS sensors; something that needs to be taken into account in shot selection and composition. In other words, shooting lightning storms, and fast lateral movement by the subject or the lens, are not great ideas. By the way, the scuttlebutt about rolling shutter effect apparently started with the "purist"'s attempts to edit his clip in iMovie, where it appears that he also tried to use iMovie to effect image stabilization. It's comic.

 

If you're interested, here's an interview with the product manager for the M system about the camera's video functions: http://www.eoshd.com/content/9060/the-new-leica-m-as-a-filmmakers-tool-an-interview-with-leicas-jesko-von-oeynhausen

 

I have reasons to acquire the camera regardless of what its video capabilities are, so I guess I'm going to find out first hand what it can and can't do. Hopefully soon, but my New York dealer, like all the dealers, has a long order list and is having trouble getting the camera in stock. This is also typical.

 

Anyway, back to sound recording.

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<br />One could also send a SMPTE signal to the DSLR's audio track.<br />However, the most reliable way is, IMHO, the good old sticks.

<br />Slates are very reliabe, but only if they actually get used. If not, they are the worst system. I've been on many doc-type shoots where the dp would just shoot something without telling me. Since he was staring into his cam all the time it was hard to tell if was rolling or not. 2nd camera was nowhere to be seen. Sticks would have been of no help. So I was glad that I had put a receiver on each camera and they were glad because they could use PluralEyes in Post with no problems. Sending TC is almost exactly the same hassle on set as using a scratch track. In Post, the differences are negligible, as well, but if you send a scratch track, you've got the benefit of having half-decent audio on the camera. For instant playback if nothing else.
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Many of the above posts recommend a guide track on these DSLR's. Don't most, if not all of these cameras have built in microphones that will pick up the clap of the slate and so on? If so, why send a scratch track to these small cameras? Operators have been known to complain about wireless and especially wired hops. If the end plan is to use PluralEyes why not use the sound recorded from the onboard mic?

Many DSLR shoots i've been on follow this workflow. I'm also certain that my own recordings will be synced because of the lack of quality in the cameras audio recordings.

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