Jump to content

Source for belts for Nagra III?


rstl99

Recommended Posts

Hi again,

I satisfied my desire to own an iconic Nagra III by picking a pair on ebay recently.  The "newer" one (1967 model!) runs well, records and plays, and the "older" one (1966) will be source of spares.

 

I'm not sure when the round belts were last replaced in them but they look a little saggy.  I have been told they are not the same size as those on the later Nagra 4.2, IV-S, E, etc. (which are 88x3mm according to 4.2 Service Manual).

 

Would anyone know the actual stock size of the Nagra III belt, or better, a place where I could buy a few?

 

I looked at Russell Industries but did not see anything close to that kind of size.

http://russellind.com/EVG/main.htm

 

Thanks.

   --Robert

 

post-7331-0-22120900-1368710239_thumb.jp


post-7331-0-16656900-1368710995_thumb.jp

 

post-7331-0-80516900-1368711015_thumb.jp

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two possibilities come to mind-

 

Contact the service department at Location Sound Corp. and ask to speak with Peter Phan. As a service technician, Peter does a variety of work at LSC but he is their in-house expert on the Nagra III. He may either have belts on hand or know of a source.

 

Location Sound Corp.

link to their snazzy new website:

http://www.locationsound.com/

 

If that doesn't yield results, you might contact Nagra directly. The factory supported the Nagra III for a very very long time. I believe they announced that they would no longer maintain an inventory of support parts only relatively recently - perhaps around 2000 or so. While they don't maintain active support, they may still have some parts on hand or have advice about where to secure them.

 

http://www.nagraaudio.com/

 

David

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If LSC doesn't have any, you could also try MCM Electronics at: http://www.mcmelectronics.com. While they may not carry the exact size, I think they have resources to do customs. You can also check http://www.kenselectronics.com. The Nagra belts are a somewhat different composition from standard rubber belts though, so best to get an original if you can.

 

PS: Just looked in my files. The original Nagra III belts were part # 38.26088.000. The later part number (mid 1980's) was 25.04310.006. It is described as "Drive Belt 88 x 3" (which means 88mm long by 3mm in diameter). Back in the day they sold for $2.40/each, but are probably much pricier now!

 

Good luck.

 

--Scott

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks David, Ron and Scott.  I'll drop a line to Dave at LSC.  And if all else fails, a message to the Nagra head office in Switzerland.  Used to be a good guy working there, Mr. Bartels, who helped me out with a few things, but alas (for us, though joyfully, for him!) he also recently retired, and with him apparently went out the door the knowledge of the last man who knew the analogue Nagras intimately.

 

Scott, particular thanks for looking in your files and coming up with those part numbers.  And in particular for the description, which matches (88x3) what is indicated for belts in both my 4.2 and IV-S service manuals, which makes me believe that the belts for the 4.x machines (still available) are indeed compatible with the III, in spite of what a Nagra parts guy up here in Canada told me.

 

Cheers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The belts made in the last 20 years or so are "low static" models.   They are made from a light gray silicone as compared to the older belts which were black in color.   If you ever have a static issue in very dry weather......it shows up as a rhythmic popping sound, you can also spray a little bit of "Static Guard" carpeting static removal spray on a Q-tip and apply it to the belt with the machine running.   Works like a charm.

Ron

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The belts made in the last 20 years or so are "low static" models.   They are made from a light gray silicone as compared to the older belts which were black in color.   If you ever have a static issue in very dry weather......it shows up as a rhythmic popping sound, you can also spray a little bit of "Static Guard" carpeting static removal spray on a Q-tip and apply it to the belt with the machine running.   Works like a charm.

Ron

Thanks Ron, that's a great tip!  On a related note, it took me a while to realize, that the wire in the Nagras with a bare end sitting just barely touching one of the belts is there to remove static.  Don't know if this was an after-thought from the Nagra engineers, but I found it a neat low-tech solution to the popping problem.  It's that kind of nifty little mechanical detail that I find appealing in the analogue Nagras, and that is obviously completely absent in the current generation of digital recorders and firmware...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Marc.  Unfortunately I wasn't able to find any belts in their listings that would fit a Nagra (88x3mm).  However, looks like they have something for just about any other application, so good future reference.  Cheers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The static discharge wire was included in the design of the Nagra III early on. The adjustment of it is fairly critical. The wires should not bent out too much. The flange they are attached to should be set so that the wires are as close as possible to the belt, but not touching it. The newer style silicone belts used on the IV series are definately a plus.

 

Also, there are sometimes issues with static produced by the motor itself, due to oxidation of the contact points on the spindle bearings. This requires partial disassembly of the motor to deal with, which I don't recommend for the average user. Plenty of things to go wrong...

 

--Scott

Thanks Ron, that's a great tip!  On a related note, it took me a while to realize, that the wire in the Nagras with a bare end sitting just barely touching one of the belts is there to remove static.  Don't know if this was an after-thought from the Nagra engineers, but I found it a neat low-tech solution to the popping problem.  It's that kind of nifty little mechanical detail that I find appealing in the analogue Nagras, and that is obviously completely absent in the current generation of digital recorders and firmware...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Scott, for the information on adjusting the static discharge wires in Nagras.  And also about the reference to motor contact oxidation as a source of static.

 

Those kinds of informed bits of knowledge and information make me wish there was some sort of wiki or "layman's guide to troubleshooting, adjusting and maintaining an analog Nagra recorder", to assist amateur enthusiasts like myself who still enjoy fooling around with and using these fine older machines, and are often intimidated or confused by the language in the service manual.

 

Especially given that people who are truly knowledgeable about these recorders and still providing maintenance and repair services are probably fewer every year.

 

Regards,

   --Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sadly, most of the people who have intimate knowledge of the maintenance of Nagra's are either retired or no longer with us. It is truly becoming a lost art. While I still have most of the analog test gear and special tooling required for the III and IV series recorders (as well as the SN), I frankly consider myself a neophyte compared to guys like Peter Phan, Harvey Warnke, Ron Meyer, Ray Cymoszinski, Mike Riner and about a half-dozen others whose names I don't recall off the top of my head. These guys lived and breathed Nagra's for a good part of their career, and knew the various idiosyncracies of each board and component.

 

While the Nagra manuals are a pretty good starting place, there is a lot that isn't covered in them. Those who were fortunate enough to get some hands-on training at the Nagra factory were privy to some of various tips and pitfalls that could trip up the un-wary. Others had to rely on hands-on experience and trial and error. Either way, most of this information is contained in someone's head, or written in the margins of a Nagra manual squirreled away in a shop somewhere. Get it while you can...

 

--S 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Evan at Vark Audio Service (301-229-0288) knows Nagra inside and out.  They might have parts stockpiled.

 

Ciao,  Sully

Thanks Sully, I dropped them a line at their website, for possible future parts needs.

Cheers.

   --Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sadly, most of the people who have intimate knowledge of the maintenance of Nagra's are either retired or no longer with us. It is truly becoming a lost art. While I still have most of the analog test gear and special tooling required for the III and IV series recorders (as well as the SN), I frankly consider myself a neophyte compared to guys like Peter Phan, Harvey Warnke, Ron Meyer, Ray Cymoszinski, Mike Riner and about a half-dozen others whose names I don't recall off the top of my head. These guys lived and breathed Nagra's for a good part of their career, and knew the various idiosyncracies of each board and component.

 

While the Nagra manuals are a pretty good starting place, there is a lot that isn't covered in them. Those who were fortunate enough to get some hands-on training at the Nagra factory were privy to some of various tips and pitfalls that could trip up the un-wary. Others had to rely on hands-on experience and trial and error. Either way, most of this information is contained in someone's head, or written in the margins of a Nagra manual squirreled away in a shop somewhere. Get it while you can...

 

--S 

As you say Scott, that kind of knowledge seems to be disappearing and endangered.  I used to read about knowledge management while I was still working.  It mightg be fun, and useful, to try to tap the brain of these knowledgeable people you indicated, and put down their lessons-learned and tricks of the trade into some usable form (notes, tips and tricks, pitfalls, whatever) organized by machine and sub-component, to supplement the service manuals with this hard-earned practical real-world experience.  Because it would be a shame for these fine machines, which were the cornerstone of the film and radio recording industry for decades, to become even more difficult to service in the future, because of the dissipation and loss of this collective knowledge (as if shortage of parts wasn't enough of a challenge!).  I suppose in the current parlance a wiki site of some sort could be setup which would allow people to drop in their tips and tricks, workarounds.  Maybe I could try to develop the start of one, for fun, and then see if people may be interested to drop in their information in there.

 

Well, if you're a neophyte compared to some of these guys, I don't know what that makes ME?!?  I'm still trying to get my knowledge of electronics to a rudimentary level to be able to understand the schematics and instructions in the service manuals ;)  Really, I'm an amateur musician and sound recorder who has a passion for these fine machines, and am trying to learn to fix and maintain them out of necessity (there being no knowledgeable service techs in my vicinity), and also as a post-retirement hobby.

 

Cheers, and best regards,

   --Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The original black belts used on the Nagra III and early 4 series are, no doubt, all useless by now (they never were very long lasting anyway). I've serviced lots and lots of Nagras, and I don't recall ever having to replace the newer light grey silicon ones. They can get greasy due to improper servicing, but even then they can be renewed with a rag and 91% alcohol. The Nashville office of Trew Audio has scads of these silicone belts, new. I don't know what the price is, but $20 each surprises me. I'll check and report back.

An anti-static belt came out after the grey silicon belts, and is black, which can be confusing when considering the lousy original belts were black. I think they started to be used well after the IV-STC was introduced. This black anti-static belt isn't nearly as stretchy as the grey silicon belts, and for this reason can only be used on the take-up side (if used on the supply side the machine will not rewind), which may explain why someone said the new belts can't be used on the Nagra III.

Now that all that's been said, I recommend not using the anti-static belts at all. I have never encountered a static noise problem that the belt fixed or improved (it was always a grounding issue), and they can be a pain to get over the clutch pully. I would use just the grey silicon belts on both the takeup and supply sides, and those belts will outlast us all.

Glen Trew

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Glen, will look forward to hearing from you about the grey belts from Nashville.  I just got a couple of belts I ordered from a supplier in Canada and they are black, so I presume are the later anti-static ones.  I'll keep them for my 4.2 and IV-S, if I ever need them on there (they are fitted with the grey belts).  Sounds like I'd be better off to get grey ones for the III as well.

 

As always, your posts are insightful, informative, and evidently borne out of lots of experience.  Much of the little I know about Nagras and how to care for them, I've learned from reading your recent and archived posts, and wanted to thank you for sharing that information freely and generously.

 

After giving the '67 III a good cleaning today, I did a couple of test recordings with an RE-55 omni, acoustic guitar and voice, and it sounded quite fine.  I could imagine John Lennon or George Harrison recording a demo tune on one of them back in 1967.  The fact that this machine still records and plays back 45 years later astounds me.  A testament to Stefan's great engineering design.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Robert: Glad you have managed to get your machine working. Just be aware of the fact that, despite Kudelski's excellent engineering, you are most likely going to encounter problems with the old electrolytic capacitors in the machine. In addition, the tape stocks that the original Nagra III were designed to be used with have been long out of production. If you intend for the machine to simply be a showpiece, then none of this matters. It will probably work reasonably well with some old 3M 111 tape, or Ampex 611, if you can find any.

 

On the other hand, if you want to return the machine to something akin to it's original operating specs, it will need some work. If you want to take it a step further and align it for more a more modern tape stock, then modifications will need to be made to the bias and record EQ circuits as well. (Personally, I would just leave it as it is, unless you have deep pockets).

 

I looked at what we have in our parts bin, and as Glen says, the newer black belts are not as stretchy as the grey silicone belts. (I have never actually used of of these on either the III or IV series, as they came from a supply of parts we bought awhile back).

 

 

--S 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Scott, for the advice and suggestions, I really appreciate it.  Yes indeed, those old capacitors are no doubt the Achilles' Heel of these older machines.  I let the III run on playback for a few hours before my test recording, as I was told this is a good way to "regenerate" electrolytic caps that have not seen use for a while. 

 

Indeed, my plans are just to use the III "as-is", either as a "showpiece" as you put it, or to do a few fun recordings from time to time using one of my fine EV RE55 omni mics.  I already own a Nagra 4.2 in near-mint condition, and also an IS which works quite well, so my mono 1/4" needs are well met already.  I also own a IV-S that works but needs a bit of calibration work, so I can do stereo as well.

 

As I said in the original post, I wanted to own a III because of the fact that it's the model that really launched the Nagra line world-wide, and possibly the last one in which Kudelski himself had a large hand in the design.  The fact that I got a running unit, and a spares one, for a few hundred $'s, makes me happy.

 

I do have a box of old recorded 7" reels that I bought some years ago at an estate sale, and which I'm sure contains some of those older formulation tapes that would go well with the III.  But honestly, it didn't sound too bad (to my ears anyway) with the more recent tape that I tried the test recording on the other day (probably 966).

 

Best regards,

  --Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...