How often do you (the location sound recordist) find that production asks you about sound design/mix?

[Tim M]

I'm just saying that you skipped a lot of good advice from veterans on the subject that suggested specializing to plugging your studio and then saying how you guys do both excellently. I'm very big on specialization...I do my job, you do yours. It can be different like if I was with a company and I specialized in production and there was a dedicated guy doing post...but that is not what you were saying...no client likes to walk in and see a different guy every other day sitting in the mixing chair.

[Philip Perkins]

I'm just saying that you skipped a lot of good advice from veterans on the subject that suggested specializing to plugging your studio and then saying how you guys do both excellently. I'm very big on specialization...I do my job, you do yours. It can be different like if I was with a company and I specialized in production and there was a dedicated guy doing post...but that is not what you were saying...no client likes to walk in and see a different guy every other day sitting in the mixing chair.

I didn't plug any studio.  I am a veteran.  I am a specialist, but I happen to specialize in more than one thing.  How specialized are you?  Do you boom and mix?  Bag and cart? Do you work docs and dramas?  Maybe EPK and reality too?  Some ENG?  Or perhaps like the Good Senator, widen your specialty to teaching, live+FOH sound, live TV audio etc as well?   Being versatile has high survival value in these times.

 

philp

[John Blankenship]

I'm just saying that you skipped a lot of good advice from veterans on the subject that suggested specializing to plugging your studio and then saying how you guys do both excellently. I'm very big on specialization...I do my job, you do yours. It can be different like if I was with a company and I specialized in production and there was a dedicated guy doing post...but that is not what you were saying...no client likes to walk in and see a different guy every other day sitting in the mixing chair.

 

I'm not sure what you're saying other than coping an attitude.  Are you sure that's how you want to be seen here?  I don't recall you being this negative before.

 

You're actually doing the very thing you're telling someone else not to do.  You're now trying to sound like an expert on both production and post but admit you only know one of those trades.  Your comments show a definite lack of knowledge of the breadth of the production / post production paradigm.  That's understandable from someone who only fills one chair -- there's certainly a place for such specialization, but that's only one small aspect of the production world. 

 

There are many professionals who are accomplished in both areas, and a number of markets in which this is the norm.

 

For example, how many people do you know in Kansas City who are strictly dialogue editors, or ADR editors, or Foley mixers?  Yet, post production is still accomplished in that market as it is in pretty much every market.

 

Philip is quite accomplished in location sound in many forms (which includes recording the music of world famous artists) and in post production (numerous and diverse credits) and deserves the respect he's earned from many years of doing both.

 

I wear more than one hat also.  Maybe it's ADD -- I like the diversity.

 

There is definitely a place for specialization, and in L.A. and N.Y. it's quite common, but if one considers the entire world of post production, being highly specialized in just one small area of post is actually the exception more than the norm.  I'm not sure why a person would cop an attitude toward someone who wishes to explore those possibilities. 

 

It's a big world and there are a lot of variations out there.  Some people want to learn more about it and others want to live in a cocoon and pretend nothing else exists -- different strokes for different folks. 

 

However, a little more respect is good for everyone here.

[John Blankenship]

Let's see a show of hands.  How many people here would tell Walter Murch he's a "jack of all trades, master of none"?

 

Point being:  I don't disagree there's a value in specializing, but there are many different ways to approach a career.

[Tim M]

Wasn't referring to Phillip.

[Henchman]

I totally understand needing to wear more hats in smaller markets.

Which is why I moved to a larger market.

I like to mix.

I don't want to HAVE to wear all the different hats.

I value my personal time too much.

I don't want to own my own studio.

I don't want to be on set for 14 hours a day, on a low budget, straight to video "feature", that nobody will ever see.

I want to do what I do best, 9-10 hours, and then go home. Without having people calling me in the evenings or weekends about sounddesign, ADR or anything else.

And that was my goal and focus.

[cory]

 

I wear more than one hat also.  Maybe it's ADD -- I like the diversity.

 

Hey John, it's neat to hear that you also wear more than one hat! Do you find that you are doing both production and post on the same project often, or is it mainly one or the other?

[cory]

I totally understand needing to wear more hats in smaller markets.

Which is why I moved to a larger market.

 

Out of curiosity, where were you based before you moved out to LA?

[Tim M]

All I'm going to say is that I am personally sick of working with boom ops who I find standing closer to the camera than to talent because they wish to be a DP or whatever...or other positions yearning to do something else and being vocal about it all the time. I find this situation much in the same. I would never plug the fact that I do post or try to get them to use me for post while I am on location. I am there to be a location sound mixer and am loving every minute of it. If they said hey I heard you do post blah blah I might cater to them, even still I would rather a specialist work on it than a part timer.

There are many only post guys in Kansas City so I would definitely rather them do the larger intensive projects than me. That is all...

[Jim Feeley]

You know, I poked through Cory's website and he looks to be younger than a lot of you/us in this discussion. So it's good that he's doing different things. Maybe he'll end up with a very narrow specialty; maybe he'll focus on a few different areas. But are any of us doing exactly what we were doing when we were his age? I partly am, but there were quite a few detours between then and now. And those detours have been valuable....and during those detours I delivered way beyond what my clients and employers expected.

 

Tearing into anyone for what they're choosing to do or not do --and guessing at their motivations and desires-- doesn't seem especially helpful.

 

 

jim

ps- cory, I hope you don't take offense at what I wrote here. none intended.

[cory]

You can be the Guy for much better than that, and I have been and I am.  I've nearly paid off a house and educated 2 kids thru college being the Guy a lot of the time.  I have never eaten any food from Subway.

 

thanks!

 

philp

That is exciting to know! Has all your work been word of mouth, or are there other things you do for visibility?

 

 

 

All I'm going to say is that I am personally sick of working with boom ops who I find standing closer to the camera than to talent because they wish to be a DP or whatever...or other positions yearning to do something else and being vocal about it all the time. I find this situation much in the same. I would never plug the fact that I do post or try to get them to use me for post while I am on location. I am there to be a location sound mixer and am loving every minute of it. If they said hey I heard you do post blah blah I might cater to them, even still I would rather a specialist work on it than a part timer.

There are many only post guys in Kansas City so I would definitely rather them do the larger intensive projects than me. That is all...

I took a peek at your website and right on the front you advertise (in this order) "Sound Design. Composition. Sound Mixing." Were you formerly a post guy who now has moved to production sound only? Perhaps you'd be better served by changing the heading to something that emphasizes your production work more?-- or have you found (as I have) that some clients like to know that your knowledge of post production informs your work on set?

[Tim M]

That is exciting to know! Has all your work been word of mouth, or are there other things you do for visibility?

All I'm going to say is that I am personally sick of working with boom ops who I find standing closer to the camera than to talent because they wish to be a DP or whatever...or other positions yearning to do something else and being vocal about it all the time. I find this situation much in the same. I would never plug the fact that I do post or try to get them to use me for post while I am on location. I am there to be a location sound mixer and am loving every minute of it. If they said hey I heard you do post blah blah I might cater to them, even still I would rather a specialist work on it than a part timer.

There are many only post guys in Kansas City so I would definitely rather them do the larger intensive projects than me. That is all...

I took a peek at your website and right on the front you advertise (in this order) "Sound Design. Composition. Sound Mixing." Were you formerly a post guy who now has moved to production sound only? Perhaps you'd be better served by changing the heading to something that emphasizes your production work more?-- or have you found (as I have) that some clients like to know that your knowledge of post production informs your work on set?

Yes actually...still do post on occasion...but am never looking to "entice" a production to use me...you can do whatever you wish. All I'm saying is to not overlook what some of the others have said on here about specializing...I think it has it's place. Someone gave me great advice to specialize several years ago and it's served me well. Best.

[Henchman]

Out of curiosity, where were you based before you moved out to LA?

Vancouver, Canada.

[John Blankenship]

Hey John, it's neat to hear that you also wear more than one hat! Do you find that you are doing both production and post on the same project often, or is it mainly one or the other?

 

It's a combination.  Along with my other work, I also have a production company, so projects we do as a company are handled differently than a freelance hire. 

 

I've done a few location sound gigs that I was also the post person for, however, I'd like to stress that these were based on an established relationship and not solicited ad hoc.  If I'm on a location sound gig I don't promote my post production work.  If I ever felt it was appropriate to do so, I'd first clear it with the party who hired me.  It's important in this industry (and any industry, for that matter) not to go behind anyone's back -- or even give the appearance that you're doing so.  I know what's important when I hire a crew, so I want to maintain the same values I'd like from others.

[Philip Perkins]

Not a lot of enticement going on here.  As I mentioned many posts back, my post and my production clientele have remained pretty separate.  Maybe not how I'd wish it to be but I'm glad to have those clients in any case.

 

philp

[Damon LuVisi]

On most of the small indie stuff I prefer to do the post because I am still building my reel and resume and I prefer to do the sound editing so it showcases my production sound. I have found in the past something will happen when the editor does it or (in my case) the student director does post-sound somehow it doesnt come out the best.

[Jim Feeley]

Yes actually...still do post on occasion...but am never looking to "entice" a production to use me...you can do whatever you wish. All I'm saying is to not overlook what some of the others have said on here about specializing...I think it has it's place. Someone gave me great advice to specialize several years ago and it's served me well. Best.

 

I'm with you on "enticement." Comes off like a bait-and-switch tactic or something.

 

And if we substitute "expertise" for "specialization" then I can be with you on most of the rest. We can't develop expertise in every area (I am SO not an art director). However, we can in a couple closely-related areas. But I repeat myself.

 

This ended up being a good thread. A bit of crankiness in Act 2, but that's OK. Consensus is overrated. And we came to a resolution.  :-)

Edited May 24, 2013 by Jim Feeley

[studiomprd]

" a lot of the kinds of projects in post that I'd like to get my hands on. "

yes, but these are projects that have separate production sound crews...

in some cases, Henchman is mixing episodes that are soon to air, while future episodes are still being shot... in other cases, he is mixing stuff that wasshot previously, and elsewhere...

By no means was I disrespecting some of our combo members here, but they tend to work in different markets, and on different typesof projects.  and yes, in some markets, and some circumstances, being full service is the way to go.

 

As to sound design:  that is coordinating all the aspectsof the sound mix to insure that they best contribute to and enhance the storytelling.  Sound design begins before production, but typically has minimal involvement with production sound compared to the involvement with post production sound.

 

and Walter Murch doesn't do much production sound...

[John Blankenship]

...

and Walter Murch doesn't do much production sound...

The point was (and I'll bet many people got it), he often wears many different hats.

[studiomprd]

" The point was... "

and I got it; Walter does both picture post and sound post...

but the discussion is about doing production and post

Edited May 24, 2013 by studiomprd

[John Blankenship]

" The point was... "

and I got it; Walter does both picture and sound post...

but the discussion is about doing production and post

...actually, Mr. Pedantic, the crux of the discussion was about specialization vs developing a broader skill set and how that affects one's abilities. Valid points were made by most who contributed something other than nitpicking.

[studiomprd]

" about specialization vs developing a broader skill set "

well, the OP was unhappy that he was not getting both parts of  the sound gig, and wants to get more gigs where he is hired to do both production sound and post..." I usually find that the post goes elsewhere for one reason or another. Any advice? "

[Bondelev]

I'm going to ignore the idiotic turn this thread has taken and try to add some useful perspective from my own life. 

 

When I got out of school, I did both production and post for the first three or four years, simply because I needed to pay the bills. It became obvious quickly where both my talents and desires lay (post). 

 

Even in post, we were told FOREVER that you cannot be both a sound editor and a post mixer. It was only fairly recently (in the grand scheme) that they stopped being two different unions with two sets of dues, so most people chose one or the other, sound editing or mixing. With the advent of digital sound and cheaper studios, it became more possible to do both on small projects. 

 

But on top of that, Hollywood is based on an assembly-line system. If I were to do production sound on a feature, I would have a few weeks (or more) of work, but then wait MONTHS while they cut picture before I get into post sound. Most people cannot afford to be unemployed that long, so they will take another gig (or two or three), and it will get pushed back and on top of your post schedule, so you will piss somebody off by bailing, maybe even in mid-film. 

 

Same thing in post (between editing sound and mixing). The assembly line usually results in me mixing reel one while the sound editor is still preparing reel two (or I am editing reel two while someone else is mixing reel one). Most shows have air dates or release dates written in stone which makes it impossible to do both editing and mixing on a short turnaround. In fact I can only think of a handful of times I have done both on a single show, and my credits are almost evenly split between editing and mixing. 

 

Of course when you get outside of the Hollywood system, it becomes easier. Lucas could afford to keep Gary Rydstrom on a salary all year long working on only one film. Murch worked with Coppola, who, like Lucas, left LA to avoid that assembly line. 

 

Or, if you are in a small studio doing mostly local work, your schedule is often such that you can do everything, but it's not the typical Hollywood way. 

 

In any case, you will probably end up choosing either production or post if you wind up in Hollywood. I often point out to my students that people in the two areas tend to have very different personality traits. I know it's somewhat of a stereotype, but production people tend to be outdoorsy types who like working in large groups. Post people, like myself, prefer being alone (or in a small group) in a dark room all day long. In many ways they are almost opposite. 

 

Good luck, and I hope you find yourself. 

[Philip Perkins]

Well, I'm bipolar and schizo so I don't have any trouble going back and forth between the two!

 

I think the comment above is an over-generalization, or at least it is among the soundies I know.

 

philp

[John Blankenship]

Neither one of me is a schizophrenic.